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At what point to remove skins?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Daft newbie question alert.......

I have toyed with the idea of some simple 'touring' and have recently bought some skis, bindings and skins.

Now I think I understand the principles of when to apply the skins to make progress upwards, but at what point are they removed; or to put it another way, how much downhill is possible with skins still on? I suppose I am thinking of when the upward route contains undulations and short periods of downhill.

Thanks in advance

Nick
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It's mores about the binding still being in uphill mode which is not good if you fall over, so for your level of experience I would take them off.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@n1ckster, my experience( limited) indicates that you still need to use muscle power to move downhill with skins on...
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under a new name, it's quite possible to ski with skins on and in complete control using gravity alone at gradients of 20-30 degrees. It ain't a lot of fun, but it's character building on those occasions when it's not worth the hassle of the transitions if you've only got say 50 metres of vertical before the next climb.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@n1ckster, in the main there are two cases where you remove skins.
When it's too steep to do kick turns without being scared, in which case you take off your skis and start boot packing, I generally leave the skins on the skis and take them off at the col/summit.
When you have reached the col/summit and are heading down.

Occasionally a track will undulate and it will be a case of suck it and see but a track steep enought to make decent progress with skins on will warrent taking them off anyway. Learning to be efficient swapping over is very important.

One point worth thinking about is when you have skied down onto a glacier and have to put them on, the safest thing is to always keep a ski on just in case you are standing on a hole!

It might be an idea to invest in a course if you don't have some pals to show you the ropes.
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If you have overshot the road you were aiming for when skiing in a forest...
...and are quite pissed off about it...
...and you put the skins on for a quick 10-minute skin up...
...and get to the road and notice that there is a drop of about a yard and a half from the snow to the road proper...
...THEN it's a good time to take them off before attempting to jump on the road (with your touring binding heels still unattached)!

...or you could blow up your ACL.

This did not happen to me (honestly, I blew my ACL learning how to surf in the North Sea!) but it did happen to a good friend.

For a more useful answer, when there's only a short gentle downhill I keep them on but I ski it VERY backseat, as I'm afraid of taking a knee fall and breaking the binding and more importantly my ACL.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Or.. on the night tour when you catch the middle chairlift, I've done it twice with skins still on and it doesn't half make the dismount interesting.

Hitting a short undulating section is actually one time when I value being able to click my Tracker bindings into locked mode with a ski pole.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
moffatross wrote:
it's quite possible to ski with skins on and in complete control using gravity alone at gradients of 20-30 degrees.


And why would you want to do that?

moffatross wrote:
It ain't a lot of fun, but it's character building


And how many things about which that applies would one choose to do?
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under a new name wrote:
And why would you want to do that?

If you have a short downhill section in the middle of a climb
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under a new name wrote:
And why would you want to do that?

And how many things about which that applies would one choose to do?


Well, some people have suggested in the past that it can be useful on those occasions when it's not worth the hassle of the transitions if you've only got say 50 metres of vertical before the next climb. I wonder where I read that.
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under a new name, if you haven't yourself toured undulating terrain featuring for example an occasional small drop to a col on the way to a bigger summit, you probably wouldn't appreciate the benefits of not dealing with the faff of unnecessary transitions. No matter how efficient your skin-ski-skin changeover is, in real life, keeping skins on is sometimes a better option if you're wanting to make quick progress.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Serriadh, @Flaine skier, I was being slightly ironic. Clearly indetectable.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
moffatross wrote:
under a new name, if you haven't yourself toured undulating terrain featuring for example an occasional small drop to a col on the way to a bigger summit, you probably wouldn't appreciate the benefits of not dealing with the faff of unnecessary transitions. No matter how efficient your skin-ski-skin changeover is, in real life, keeping skins on is sometimes a better option if you're wanting to make quick progress.


This is nature's way of telling you to get some skis with fishscale bases and 3-pin bindings.

under a new name wrote:
@Serriadh, @Flaine skier, I was being slightly ironic. Clearly indetectable.


Verging on the homeopathic.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Cool
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@under a new name, Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm afraid that I just found this a rather obvious question. You take your skins off when the hassle of removing/replacing them is outweighed by the chore of skiing down the slope with them on. A bit of personal decision. If you can take them off with one hand without removing your skis from your bindings your response will be rather different to someone who faffs around for 30 minutes with each process.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
under a new name, sorry, the irony went right over my head, but well done for being so supple. Cool I haven't ever attempted that randonnee racer ballet manoeuvre and can't figure out how it would really work with Dynafits anyway as skis would have to come off to go back into freeheel mode ? It's not something I've seen any of my buddies doing either ... perhaps it's because it's not so easy standing one-ski-legged on sastrugied snow in a 40 mph crosswind holding onto a skin flapping around like a demented rattlesnake on speed Madeye-Smiley
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@moffatross, If only I could... Embarassed I have seen it done though in some pretty dodgy conditions.

I'm not I know what you mean about dynafits as if the skins are coming off, you're in free heel mode anyway?
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I'll have to find somewhere safe to try it for myself. Laughing Re. needing to take skis off with Dynafits, the full story is that if I'm descending that hypothetical 50 metres vertical of 20-30 degree snow with skins still on, I'd use a ski pole tip to rotate the heel piece out of freeheel mode, tread heels down to locked for skiing and push toe pieces into ski mode so they're able to release. At the bottom, before the climb, I'd then have to take the skis off so I could rotate the heel pieces back to freeheel mode.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@moffatross, ah, right, I see what you mean.

So basically you need to learn to telemark?
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on an intro to touring week , we were encouraged to keep them on for short descents , very interesting results with lots of face plants Shocked , better for those with the ability to lock the touring binding down , i personally found the massive backseat snow plough tecnique far preferable to takeing skins on and off !!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Urrm, no he says he locks the heel down under a new name. I normally don't bother with that and bust out the venerable snowplough. I can manage a wobbly parallel if the ground isn't too steep. Leads to some amusing face planting.

Edit: Wow, cross posting to say nearly the same thing! Smile
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@meh, no, I meant he needs to descend with heels unlocked. A la telemark. Although without the cables and bendy boots.
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For extra amusement, try it on a splitboard... Laughing
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under a new name wrote:
I meant he needs to descend with heels unlocked.


No I don't. But if you want to, that's your own beardy prerogative. wink On gentler gradients, I do descend with skins on skis and heels unlocked, but I don't like to do it on steeper slopes. When I lock my heels down I can actually ski (slowly) with skins with no need for the snowploughing and face-planting discussed by the others. With regards to unlocked heels, it would actually be interesting to know whether telemarkers are more accomplished at down-hilling steeper gradients with skins on their skis. wink
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For going down short slopes with skins on, as long as it isn't too steep I don't both with locking the heels or trying to turn as you go quite slowly anyway. When it is steep either a gentle diagonal or take the skis off and boot down works for me.

As for the taking skins off without removing your skis, it used to be easy when skins didn't have tail fixings and skins were parallel. To take off the right skin you put the left pole out to the side and lean on it. Then lift the heel of the right ski while keeping the tip on the ground, reach around with the right hand and grab the tail of the ski and pull the end of the skin off. Give it a hard flick forward and the whole thing comes off. Once off put your ski back down and use the tip of the ski pole to catch the end of the skin so it doesn't land in the snow. With parallel skins you could just fold then in half sticky side to sticky side and stick them down your jumper. It's much harder with tail fixings and you can't just fold shaped skins. With the old Silvaretta 404's or Fritschi's all you had to do then was click the heels down and off you went.
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