 Poster: A snowHead
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| dode wrote: |
| With regard to filling chairs (or not) IMV it is like boarding a bus. If I am on a bus with only a couple other folk and plenty empty seats, I don't expect the next person getting on to sit right beside me. If the bus is almost full, I do expect them to sit next to me. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Coming over a hill to find boarders sitting in the middle of the slope is a huge pain in the neck, I wish they wouldn't do that, however skiiers are guilty of standing in places like that too, it drives me bonkers. On the lift thing , I hate people shuffling behind you shoving your skis with theirs causing you to bump the skis in front, that also drives me bonkers. On queing, I have been lucky enough the last few years to get to places where ques are fairly short so don't mind people just going alone, it doesn't matter on a short que. Have been lucky enough to manage to ski to lifts and straight onto the next chair up,. ( I love that). The other bug bear I have is when folks joining a run don't look uphill as they join , ie just ski straight onto the run even though your approaching fairly fast, they can be avoided but just look, to see if your skiing into the path of an oncoming skier. Sometimes on those little roads that in some resorts are hard to avoid as they lead from one run to another, and you have people skiing/boarding side by side slowly and taking up the full path, causing you to lose your speed and therefore have to poll at the end, aaaargh that is annoying too, I usually click my poles to let them know I am going to pass on the right, but sometimes they just don't give any room, .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@biddpyat, Agree. I think that without overruling the 'overtaking skier is in the wrong' rule , people on narrow flattish tracks should make reasonable efforts to ensure that faster skiers can pass easily. Insisting that a large queue of people should have to develop behind you so that you can slowly weave from side to side , and than all having to pole along later , whilst not against the 'rules' is very anti-social.
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We went to UCPA Tignes last January as a big group. My friend thinks he is the best skier just because he is a daredevil and does off-piste lessons.
The reality is that he is the bravest but on piste, he struggles to control his speed.
Towards the end of the day we were skiing down from the glacier in Tignes towards the UCPA centre.
We were coming down Piste Prariond and there is a section that gets narrower and tons of beginners are struggling down in the choppy conditions.
The rest of us slowed down to carefully navigate the hordes of beginners, but my friend came at full pelt, trying to race us back to the centre.
At this point, a beginner skier, in her 50's, pulled out in front of him without looking. He hit her at a significant pace and they both went flying, skis and poles going everywhere.
Luckily they were both ok, but it could have been much worse.
Her husband was furious with my friend (who we had serious words with afterwards) but in truth, they were both at fault.
The lesson here is simple: Beginner? Intermediate? Expert? - BE CONSIDERATE, CONTROL YOUR SPEED AND LOOK AROUND FOR OTHERS!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Also on the same subject...
I was skiing in Cham, coming down the Brevent Green bit, Piste 2000 perhaps? Not very fast as it is pretty flat at the top.
A small child lost control and came flying towards me, I stopped quickly but his small pole stabbed me in the leg.
His dad came across, an American, and went absolutely mad at me - claiming I nearly hit his son. I put him in his place as politely as possible.
How can some people be so aggressive and in the wrong!?
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| Quote: |
they were both at fault.
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No they weren't.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
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they were both at fault.
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No they weren't. |
I am sorry to say it but they were.
He was completely wrong for speeding through an area he should have controlled his speed, but she was completely wrong for making a turn without looking.
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@bezthespaniard, If she had stopped and started off again without looking, that's one thing, but if she was just minding her own business and pulled out a bit further to the left or right than she'd been before then it's pretty much 100% your mates fault.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@ansta1, technically, rule 6
that said, if you go into an area full of beginners at full pelt, pretty much anything which happens thereafter is your fault in my book
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If she was merely skiing down a slope (i.e. not rejoining from stopped), why should she look behind before making a turn?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@alex99, you yourself said "move on/everyone makes mistakes/ c'est la vie" - you seem to accept that accidents just happen.
Collisions between 2 people usually happen because both aren't paying adequate attention/control, followed by when 1 party isn't paying adequate attention/control. If both are fully alert it's pretty hard and if only one is alert they can more often than not take evasive action. So downslope skiers can protect themselves if they are alert to uphill traffic (the FIS code isn't a magic shield against getting hit). There are very few true accidents usually a mix of too much speed/not enough skill/not adjusted for conditions.
I don't police the slopes but I'm quite free with my anglo saxon when someone endangers me through their own reckless action (which includes setting off point blank into my path from stationary without looking my most recent collision (well not quite I just skied over his skis and was fine. He was a bit shocked and inevitably fell over)
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No, it deffo was part her fault. She was off the side of the piste completely stationary and then just set off across the piste horizontally without looking. Even if he was skiing carefully he would have hit her.
She caused the collision, his speed could have made it much much worse.
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You know it makes sense.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
No, it deffo was part her fault. She was off the side of the piste completely stationary and then just set off across the piste horizontally without looking. Even if he was skiing carefully he would have hit her.
She caused the collision, his speed could have made it much much worse. |
That situation is totally her fault - entering without looking, not looking uphill before starting. It's also the default MO of the ESF 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I am a strong believer that it is everyone responsibility to be safe on the slopes, no matter the ability or situation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
No, it deffo was part her fault. She was off the side of the piste completely stationary and then just set off across the piste horizontally without looking. Even if he was skiing carefully he would have hit her.
She caused the collision, his speed could have made it much much worse. |
That situation is totally her fault - entering without looking, not looking uphill before starting. It's also the default MO of the ESF |
Yes, agree, but in the situation as described in the OP, one should ski with extra caution know that something like that is likely to happen.
IMO in addition all those rules in the PDF link, always ski with a margin of error that will make it likely that even if someone does something stupid you can avoid an accident.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@bezthespaniard, in that case she has to share the blame (if not take most of it)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes....
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you seem to accept that accidents just happen
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No I don't. Some accidents (and emphasis on some, not all) just happen... a simple mistake/bit of carelessness, and there are no major consequences/loss suffered. You can be a bit careless but not reckless. There is a difference. e.g. a snowboarder disembarking a chairlift might accidentally stumble and someone else falls over him (we've all seen it) They both get up, with no injury/lasting damage. It would be pretty harsh to call that reckless, at the most it could be careless. A simple mistake. Those are my c'est la vie cases.
That is completely different to someone skiing recklessly (e.g. way too fast, cutting others up, with no regard for safety) and injuring someone. I don't agree with your conclusion that:
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| Their degree of recklessness has no correlation to the severity of your injury |
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The more reckless you are the more likely an injury could result.
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| Quote: |
That situation is totally her fault
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?? even though he was "racing at full pelt through hordes of beginners"? and he "he struggles to control his speed"
Hmm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| alex99 wrote: |
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That situation is totally her fault
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?? even though he was "racing at full pelt through hordes of beginners"? and he "he struggles to control his speed"
Hmm. |
Yeah fair point on that one was just reading it on bez's facts in teh post above
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Shared blame
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| Quote: |
She was off the side of the piste completely stationary and then just set off across the piste horizontally without looking
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based on that additional info, then yes she is also to blame but I feel if it resulted in an injury she would have been less to blame than him, though that is my opinion based on what's been said about the incident. eg she MAY have looked uphill and saw a gaggle of slow skiers/boarders and not noticed someone coming through at warp factor 5. That doesn't absolve her of blame.
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| ansta1 wrote: |
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She was off the side of the piste completely stationary and then just set off across the piste horizontally without looking
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based on that additional info, then yes she is also to blame but I feel if it resulted in an injury she would have been less to blame than him, though that is my opinion based on what's been said about the incident. eg she MAY have looked uphill and saw a gaggle of slow skiers/boarders and not noticed someone coming through at warp factor 5. That doesn't absolve her of blame. |
This idea of relative blame always coming down heavier on the faster party is fundamentally flawed IMV. Far too few skiers are aware of the FIS code and beyond that even fewer are aware of anything beyond "downhill skier has right of way" which is a sensible principle but as this example shows flawed if someone is then breaching a couple more items. If you're stopped or off the piste you are "out of play" so just like joining traffic from a sideroad you should join when it is safe not rely on not being rear ended. If the uphill skier is allowing for you being stopped and avoiding that space if you then move you are more likely to get hit. It's not difficult. Ski schools seem to teach this very poorly and indeed I've seen snakes not paying any attention to this themselves.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I agree and to use a non skiing example. I had an accident in a car where I pulled out in front of a car at a T-junction and the slammed into the side of my car. I was deemed at fault by the insurance company (which I was) however the other driver was doing in excess of 60 in a 30 zone (at night) and he was subsequently prosecuted by the police for due care.
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I dunno - whatever the FIS code says, I think you have to expect muppetry if you go into an area full of beginners so you either avoid such areas or slow right down and/or give everyone a very wide berth
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Agree blitzing through a beginner area is a douche move but beginners also need to be aware that the sole home run on the mountain is not a beginner run and people will not be waiting around to go at the speed of the slowest/most timid skier. They will be passing and often at relatively high speed. Countless examples - Pierre a Ric, Engelberg, Grimentz, Nasserein etc etc
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It annoys me when people try and clock their speed on those stupid apps... it's really dangerous and I've seen some VERY nasty accidents - one incident, although they weren't clocking, they were speeders, a whole group of them, barely teenagers, a father with his little one (maybe 8 or 9 yrs old) needless to say the oiks were so intent on focusing on beating each other one of them didn't see the child and hit her square on... there were a lot of tears and by some fluke chance she was injury free - the oik just shrugged and skied off. I hate and I mean HATE speeders... it's so unnecessary.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I'm not sure there is any such thing as a 'beginner run'. Just that some runs are easier than others. A beginner has just as much right to be on a black run as a green run and an expert has just as much right to be on a green as a black. That said, a beginner might well be foolish to be on a run beyond their ability.
If there is a sole home run on the mountain then that principle is even more valid and while I'm not suggesting people should
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be waiting around to go at the speed of the slowest/most timid skier.
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they should adjust their speed accordingly to pass safely and considerately. All the usual rules apply. I think the words 'and considerately' are especially important. Just because a faster, overtaking skier doesn't actually make contact with a slow, timid beginner they can still cause significant 'upset' by passing nearby at speed. Slow down and give them a wide berth. We were all beginners once. It's just a case of good manners.
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You know it makes sense.
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@foxtrotzulu, +1
Spot on. I've been skiing for 20+ years, and, when the conditions are right like to 'turn on the nitrous'. However I've never yet run smack into a skier in front of me. It's probably a fair slice of luck, but also skiing considerately down beginners runs.
Mind you I've had a few of those ones where you're about level with another skiing and you both simultaneously do a turn into each other and end up the embarrassing hug !
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Insiders, for once , I totally agree with you.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dave of the Marmottes, i would be worried to see beginners on Pierre a ric.
@foxtrotzulu, i think I might disagree with you. People ought to be where they ought to be, more or less. That said, I generally, when possible, keep side/off piste on Pierre a Ric, because I have not, in recent years, skied it without seeing at least one bundle of idiots who think that a Norrona onepiece makes them hyperspeed skis gods.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Insiders wrote: |
| It annoys me when people try and clock their speed on those stupid apps... |
I use one for cycling, it's motivational. But people are recording potentially suicidal speeds down a steep single track lane near me and I'm sure they only doing because it's a "Strava Run". If they meet a big agricultural vehicle - and repeat the route enough times and you will - then they will be head-first into the hedge because there's no place else to go and no way could they stop. What is it about chasing numbers on these apps that makes sane people bonkers?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| dogwatch wrote: |
| SkiG wrote: |
| I hit someone who was downhill of me last year. Was skiing at reasonable (but not stupid) pace, no other skiers in view, looked up the hill for the other half and when I looked back there was suddenly someone in front of me. Turns out he had come out from behind a mound created by a snow cannon. I hit the brakes and turned sharply but it was too late and I clipped the back of his skis, and he fell. My fault. I immediately stopped, apologised profusely and made sure that he was ok (which he was). He then went ape at me, swearing and calling me all names. So I told him to F off and skied on. Not acceptable response to my mistake. |
So you weren't looking where you were going, crashed into someone and he swore at you. You think that's unacceptable. But swearing back is OK.
I've been crashed into twice in the last year. Fortunately no damage done either time. I've never hit anyone else in 40 years of skiing. I'd never been hit by anyone before. I don't know if this is coincidence or if there are just more ***** about. |
Well done you  .
Or to be more honest, you are very lucky. I think you will probably find that the vast majority of skiers have at some point. After all there is no beginner who has never been accidentally out of control during the learning process.
Is it acceptable to verbally abuse someone who has made a genuine mistake, and is extremely apologetic and doing the right thing and stopping to make sure you are ok? No in my opinion that is an unacceptable response. Is it appropriate to tell someone abusing you to F off, absolutely in my mind.
In actual fact, if someone can not accept that accidents happen without swearing at and threatening people who have made a genuine mistake, then it is them who should be relieved of their lift pass.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I think the words 'and considerately' are especially important. Just because a faster, overtaking skier doesn't actually make contact with a slow, timid beginner they can still cause significant 'upset' by passing nearby at speed. Slow down and give them a wide berth. We were all beginners once. It's just a case of good manners. |
While I agree on the being considerate point and I'm not looking for excuses to be a douche there is usually a point in the day when certain runs become congested such that really wide berths for successive skiers are not really possible. Somewher like Happy Valley is such an example. I'd ski almost anywhere but on that piste but I still have to pop on to it to get round the corner where it is no more than a cat track width. At such a point in time I'm just suggesting to the timid that they narrow their "freakout zone" in recognition of the fact that they have chosen to be on a very busy run at a busy time of day.
I also realise it doesn't quite work like this which is why it then falls on the more experienced in their party to have some responsibility for making death before download and/or timing decisions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, you're made me feel better about freaking out on Happy Valley. At least I do make myself small. (Yes, I know that's not difficult.)
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Have to agree with you there. Also, whilst not a rule, I do think it is sensible for slower skiers to always leave a metre or so between them and the edge of the piste when making their turns. I have seen several accidents where faster skiers have tried to go around a slower skier and run out of room. The slower skier is definitely in the right, but not sure that will make them feel any better if they get clipped.
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Apparently ski slopes are dangerous places with people who regard aggression an appropriate response to other people's behaviour. I wonder how you make it through daily life with attitudes like that.
I can't see the relevance of blame. If you get hurt, you lose. I'm sometimes a cyclist, and I could bang on about drivers using their phones, running red lights, breaking speed limits, driving drunk, parking illegally in my way and all that stuff. I don't think that would really help, so I just assume they're all out to kill me and deal with it.
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| eblunt wrote: |
@foxtrotzulu, +1
Spot on. I've been skiing for 20+ years, and, when the conditions are right like to 'turn on the nitrous'. However I've never yet run smack into a skier in front of me. It's probably a fair slice of luck, but also skiing considerately down beginners runs.
Mind you I've had a few of those ones where you're about level with another skiing and you both simultaneously do a turn into each other and end up the embarrassing hug ! |
Ha ha, I know that hug, it's funny and not funny at the same time. I had my daughter cut off last year by a dad, then his son,( dad was showing the child how to ski) the dad ran over her tips and the boy ran into her, dad was out of control and the child was following his tracks, it was a blue run and he was skiing way too fast, and not able to turn at his speed. If you can't stop or turn in a split second your going too fast. If you can then ok, ski and avoid those downhill from you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
My only complaint is........ if you are good and you need to enter a packed beginner area to get the last 300m down the hill, don't bomb through it like a downhill racer.
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This 
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FAQ
