 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't know the answers, but in terms of relative sample size I'm not sure about the two pictures really showing a trend.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That's a fair and important point, @Megamum. If anyone has a bigger recent group shot of BASI trainers - or knows what the current helmet quota might be (approximately) - this would be interesting to see/know.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Its probably a conspiracy.
Compare the number of skiiers in the first pic to the mere 7 in the second... clearly all the other ones refused to toe the line, and have been disposed of by the secret council of head protection equipment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No idea. Any sponsorship deal going on?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Going by the Hintertux exams last Spring, at which most of the snowboard trainers were present, the percentage of snowboard trainers wearing helmets is 0%. Didn't pay much attention to the skiers, but don't think that many of them were helmeted either.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| That's a fair and important point, @Megamum. If anyone has a bigger recent group shot of BASI trainers - or knows what the current helmet quota might be (approximately) - this would be interesting to see/know. |
Rough ages of the instructors would be good too, those in this years pic probably had to wear helmets as junior skiers and have carried this on as the helmet becomes part of their normal ski gear.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Well whether instructors wear them or not I am pleased to have a shiny new one one with a visor to try out this year - my £14 Sports Direct job has been a cracking helmet for a number of years, but I have a acquired a lovely new OSBE one that is good fit through SH's and am looking forward to trying it out next Feb. However, I will probably keep the old one for indoor practice as I think the visor will just get in the way.
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| Quote: |
my £14 Sports Direct job has been a cracking helme
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Not a feature I'd normally look for in a helmet 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Insurance ?
Most of the tour ops make staff wear them if ski guiding.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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At our fresh-up course for teachers there were about 120 teachers and 12 trainers.
2 people didn't have a lid.
There are no conditions or enforcements for anyone to wear one.
There were about 15 boarders and the rest were skiers.
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Also, if instructing kids it encourages them to wear their helmets.
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You know it makes sense.
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Id say insurance and setting an example to kids.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Actually, my money is on a really crap resort hairdresser
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| What persuaded BASI trainers to make the big switch? |
BASI Trainers as a group have not made a big switch. Individual instructors might have decided to use helmets, for at least some of the time. I assume you think it's OK for them to reach their own judgements about what protective equipment they use?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Im always in two minds on helmets. I never wear one indoors unless i was racing or doing a bit of free style. On the mountain I always wear one. I guess I just feel speed is lower indoors, so my chance of having a boo boo is less, but I guess it can happen at anytime (hell I fractured my shoulder, wrist and knocked myself out at 1 race at chillfactore!). Personally, now I have a son, I couldn't care less whether the instructor wears a helmet, as I will always ensure my son does - why should the instructor be the one to set all the examples - thats my job as his father.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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At risk of (a) getting into another helmet thread; and (b) detracting from BASI's recent woes....
I don't know about those guys.
Some thoughts...
(1) At many resorts and other commercial operations in North America at least helmet wearing by staff has been made compulsory over the last few years.
(2) Paradoxically helmets are more likely to be of assistance at lower speeds.
(3) I regularly see kiddies cycling with their helmets hanging on their handlebars. Their parents think they're all safely kitted up no doubt. Some of them are competent cyclists, some aren't - I suspect that this is a much bigger factor in their safety than what they wear on their heads,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| What persuaded BASI trainers to make the big switch? |
BASI Trainers as a group have not made a big switch. Individual instructors might have decided to use helmets, for at least some of the time. I assume you think it's OK for them to reach their own judgements about what protective equipment they use? |
Rob, can you put a rough percentage on how many BASI trainers now use helmets? Looks like it was under 5% in 2009.
I very much agree that instructors - and any other ski professionals - should be free to make personal judgements about whether to use helmets. Absolutely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Rob, can you put a rough percentage on how many BASI trainers now use helmets? Looks like it was under 5% in 2009. |
Sorry, don't think I can as I don't ski with enough of them. I did chat with a few of the guys on the Demo Team during the course of last season about helmet use and there seemed to be a growing feeling of "need to be sensible about this" so any 'anti-helmet' inertia is increasingly discounted. It continues to be emphasised that it's personal choice, and more seem to be wearing a helmet when free skiing or training but often not when teaching (which is mainly the approach I take).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It's interesting, Rob. I've a hunch that the helmet industry has put persistent pressure on 'opinion leaders' to wear lids and promote lids.
One would need to look at any promotional 'dishing out' of helmets (either free or discounted much cheaper than the public would pay) to non-believers etc., particularly in the period 2000 to 2005.
I totally agree that there's a "need to be sensible about this" ... but would insist that this takes account of the acknowledged truth that helmets only offer test-evaluated (industry standard) protection at speeds below 15 mph.
Therefore, for an instructor to opinion-lead ... by not wearing a helmet ... at speeds below 15 mph while teaching (since the vast majority of ski teaching is done at those speeds) ... but then free-skiing with a helmet above 15 mph (when the protection might be doubtful) ... isn't necessarily "sensible".
Maybe sales of helmets have now peaked and the skiing community can start to address this whole affair more scientifically and rationally, on the basis of epidemiology etc.
I maintain that helmets have made skiing look a lot more dangerous than it actually is - it's a really negative visual key - and that helmets 'anonymise' people's faces, which makes the sport a lot less sociable.
Overall, the risk of serious head injury in skiing remains low ... and there's still no proof that the boom in helmet sales has led to fewer deaths or serious concussions.
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That 15mph thing is such a misnomer.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| I've a hunch that the helmet industry has put persistent pressure on 'opinion leaders' to wear lids and promote lids. |
Oh look,
| Serriadh wrote: |
| Its probably a conspiracy. |
...called it.
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| One would need to look at any promotional 'dishing out' of helmets (either free or discounted much cheaper than the public would pay) to non-believers etc |
I'd check to see if they're getting free back protection too, because you seem to feel that these 'opinion leaders' are totally spineless and only hold opinions that they are given along with a shiny helmet?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| One would need to look at any promotional 'dishing out' of helmets (either free or discounted much cheaper than the public would pay) to non-believers etc., particularly in the period 2000 to 2005. |
So, at the time when the ski industry was dishing out helmets, instructors overwhelmingly didn't wear them. I'd say your hunch about helmet manufacturers putting persistent pressure on opinion leaders (if you choose to call ski instructors that) is ludicrously wide of the mark. There are plenty of discounts available to instructors, but none of them prioritise helmets above any other kind of kit, protection or clothing. On the occasion when I've heard instructors talk about helmets, which isn't often because generally they are not obsessed about it, without fail it has been stated it should be a matter of personal choice.
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| Quote: |
but would insist that this takes account of the acknowledged truth that helmets only offer test-evaluated (industry standard) protection at speeds below 15 mph.
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This is disingenuous and I suspect you know it DG.
Helmets are basically designed to protect your head against being dropped on a hard surface from around 6 feet (i.e. falling over without breaking your fall). It is this that equates to an impact speed of about 15 mph.
If you are skiing at 40 mph and you fall over and bang your head on the ground that impact speed will still only be 15mph in the direction that counts.
Of course if you ski straight into a tree at 40 mph then that is a different matter.
If you fall and slide towards a tree head first then you will likely decelerate a chunk before you hit.
My point is not to say that some accidents can't overwhelm the protection offered by helmets but everyone should be clear that a helmet doesn't stop being useful as soon as you are moving at 15mph!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Comedy Goldsmith, and his great Helmet conspiracy again!!! 1st off there is plenty of research from health professionals to the benefits of helmets, although a long term comparative study would be difficult due to the spread of data in relation to incidents etc.
Most of the demo team have significant race background, I know a few of the guys personally and have trained with some of them before, two in particular work together one wears a lid the other doesn't, both are on the same kit manufactures pro deals, so no real evidence of manufacturer pressure.
| Quote: |
Quote:
but would insist that this takes account of the acknowledged truth that helmets only offer test-evaluated (industry standard) protection at speeds below 15 mph.
This is disingenuous and I suspect you know it DG.
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Not disingenuous, false and blatent lies, Amer sports test there helmets at speeds in excess of this (As do other companies but i dont know exact figures) the FIS reg helmets are tested at nearly 4 times that speed!
Personally I wear one skiing and when teaching it depends, in the mountains, yes nearly always, except for the youngest kids at beginner stages and the same for artificial slopes
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@halfhand, Probably should have just left it at the middle paragraph but sure, why not jump in with two feet  There is no helmet debate, either you wear one by choice or you don't by choice simple really, live and let live
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You know it makes sense.
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Let's take a look at what BASI is saying about helmets officially
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/technical-faqs.asp
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8.Do I need a helmet for my course?
Helmets are being used increasingly by the skiing public and by instructors and other snowsport professionals. There is no obligation to wear a helmet on a BASI course although it is encouraged for those who wish to do so. |
Let's deconstruct that remarkable pair of sentences, which pointedly don't say in simple straightforward terms "No. You are welcome to wear a helmet or not to wear a helmet." Or simply the one-word answer "No."
Instead, the answer begins ...
| Quote: |
| "Helmets are being used increasingly by the skiing public and by instructors ..." |
In other words, we'd like to remind you that there's a trend running with the public ... so maybe this has nothing to do with technical argument and you should take note of that ... and instructors (ignore any technical argument, just join the bandwagon) ... and "other snowsport professionals" (lifties? ski patrollers? ski technicians?) ... you should simply be aware there's a trend running with these non-instructors, and take a message from that.
Question: why is it relevant to talk about trends, if the message is (supposedly) neutral?
| Quote: |
| "There is no obligation to wear a helmet on a BASI course although it is encouraged for those who wish to do so." |
And ... if you don't wish to do so, are you equally encouraged in that decision? Why does 'encouragement' play any part in this?
Despite the woolly words ... BASI's persuasion seems pretty clear on all fronts!
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 11-11-14 21:56; edited 2 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OH NO THE HELMET NAZIS ARE COMING TO TAKE YOUR BEANIES AWAY
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Comedy Goldsmith, speaking as an active BASI member I can safely say you are barking up the wrong tree. Not that you'll pay me any attention, of course, because it doesn't fit with your narrative. So, a great example of never letting real life experience get in the way of a good internet conspiracy...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Deleted post. There's no point presenting any non-polarised opinion about the semantic context of the word 'helmet' in a sentence here.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 11-11-14 23:12; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@stevomcd, in that case ... why is the BASI frequently-asked question (above) "Do I need a helmet for my course?" ... answered with words beginning "Helmets are being used increasingly ..."
It's a bit like posing the question "Do I need a pizza wheel to cut a pizza?" ... answered by "Pizza wheels are being used increasingly ... "
What better way is there to encourage use than to say there's a trend/fashion for it?
BASI is a helmet promoter and gives you supportive encouragement if you take a decision to wear a helmet - that's the message in black and white 5 postings above this one!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Most elite"?
"Elitest elite"
"Mostest most elitest elitely elite".
Can we have a little elite grammar on here please?
Call yourself a journalist? 
(edited for leet spelling)
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 12-11-14 10:33; edited 1 time in total
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| BASI is a helmet promoter and gives you supportive encouragement if you take a decision to wear a helmet - that's the message in black and white 5 postings above this one! |
Wrong.
In the last 20 years how many BASI training weeks have you done, how many BASI exams, how many BASI refreshers? If the answer to those questions is greater than zero, did any BASI trainer encourage you to wear a helmet? If the answer is zero then you are not in any position to say what the real life BASI policy is.
Your anti-helmet campaign is well known, but this thread is pretty desperate.
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I think its inconclusive.
The first one is a large posed group shot with some amount of kit left out of view and people making an effort to show their faces. Plenty of people who wear helmets also carry beanies to switch into, for example to keep warm when lunching outside. Apart from the ones with goggles lifted up onto wooly hats I'd hesitate to say who was and wasn't skiing in a helmet that day, particularly as we don't have a good clue as to what sort of skiing was happening.
The second group is much smaller, we don't see any faces. It may be a younger demographic. It may be because they are more from a racing background that the trainer pool It may be because they are a demo team that practices skiing really fast rather close to each other. Or they may feel that they should wear helmets when they perform as children have to. Ot it could just be cold and they're wearing helmets and beanies under.
Find the trainers all skiing 5 years apart, or the demo team 5 years apart and you've got data points to consider , but those two photos don't warrant any conclusions from a comparison.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
In the last 20 years how many BASI training weeks have you done, how many BASI exams, how many BASI refreshers? If the answer to those questions is greater than zero, did any BASI trainer encourage you to wear a helmet? If the answer is zero then you are not in any position to say what the real life BASI policy is.
Your anti-helmet campaign is well known, but this thread is pretty desperate. |
The answer to that question is "less than zero", I think. I recall doing a BASI refresher at Wycombe Summit, probably more than 20 years ago.
Why are you personalising this?
I've pointed out official BASI text, above, which has nothing whatever to do with how many BASI courses I've done recently ... and overrides anything else. The official text is clearly 'encouraging' helmets because it offers 'encouragement'.
Rob, if you don't want BASI to be perceived as a helmet promoter ... its guidance must be purely neutral on the matter!
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
The answer to that question is "less than zero", I think. I recall doing a BASI refresher at Wycombe Summit, probably more than 20 years ago.
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Flippin' heck. Then your experience isn't even anecdotal. Case dismissed.
Move on, nothing to see hear except another very stale helmet debate
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FAQ
