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Simon Butler ... "BASI licence revoked" [1 Nov] ... court challenge [21 Nov]

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Pedantica, I assume that this Scottish interdict is similar to an English ex parte injunction. (IANAL, as you know!).
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laundryman wrote:
@Pedantica, I assume that this Scottish interdict is similar to an English ex parte injunction. (IANAL, as you know!).



Interdict - A judicial prohibition or court order preventing someone from doing something. In an emergency, interim interdict can be obtained in the absence of the person against whom the order is sought (i.e ex parte).

I would imagine SB would challenge via a court a suspension or expulsion. They amount to the same thing - he can't teach.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
TTT wrote:
@laundryman, you clearly have not read what I've written on this particular point and absolutely no awareness of what I have said privately on this matter. You would be surprised. People really should read more carefully.

I've read plenty on what you've written on this point but cannot guarantee to have read it all. Whether you mean what you have said or not does not affect my opinion of whether or not you have egg on your face; just the precise reason as to why it is there. I have no opinion on what you may have said privately, because by definition, and as you say, I do not know it.
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TTT you have been extremely rude to and about a number of people on this forum and now you must face the fact that what goes around comes around.....with egg Laughing
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rob@rar wrote:
speed098 wrote:
But unlike them not informing SB of their meeting the court would have informed BASI of the hearing in the court. If they decided not to turn up I think the members need to question what is going on at BASI for them to ignore such a serious matter that goes to the core of BASI disciplinary procedures.
According to PlanetSki the first that BASI knew about this was when the papers were served at their office after the Court had sat. No idea if this was ineffective communication on BASI's part, or the Court was not required to inform them.


As a side comment, after reading this thread,I have just visited PlanetSki. Not been there for a long time; looks like I have been the loser, it's rather good.
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rob@rar wrote:
speed098 wrote:
But unlike them not informing SB of their meeting the court would have informed BASI of the hearing in the court. If they decided not to turn up I think the members need to question what is going on at BASI for them to ignore such a serious matter that goes to the core of BASI disciplinary procedures.
According to PlanetSki the first that BASI knew about this was when the papers were served at their office after the Court had sat. No idea if this was ineffective communication on BASI's part, or the Court was not required to inform them.


Sorry missed this reply thanks for the info.

I stand corrected seems the court did not need to inform BASI from what has been said, though personally I think if anyone or any organisation are being involved in any court/legal/disciplinary action it should be a legal requirement to give them prior knowledge and a chance to attend the hearing.


I would hope that this ruling will make BASI sit down with SB and both sides work at resolving the issues and be able to release a joint press release thus negating any further legal involvement here in the UK.
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@achilles,

I would hope nobody here wants one side or the other to be the loser lets hope my comment above about talking comes to pass.
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speed098, I meant only that I had been missed out by not visiting the PlanetSki site more. I've come to realise that I will probably never know enough about the SB cases and BASI to form a meaningful opinion.
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@speed098, agreed - that has always been my preferred and recommended option. The most I would have done is suspend the licence but only after taking independent external legal advice. I don't know if they did and I have my personal views on a specific individual.

If people can leave the SB emotional baggage aside for a moment which I don't have as doesn't impact me then I would expect to lose my license if I was guilty of committing a criminal offence or instructing outside the BASI guidelines which SB and his team have been found guilty of by a court. I've always said that I thought the process was not ideal and it is not obvious to me at a glance that these matters are specifically covered by the disciplinary procedures. I agree with BASI that the process was not ideal and that the disciplinary procedures need to be improved.

I think it is all a side show though as he can't teach in France anyway and I understand from here that he can teach in CH without a license anyway so it has no impact.

I'm personally neutral on the should they be allowed to teach in France or not debate as I can see both sides, and it doesn't personally impact me.

I'm not personally neutral on the EU/UKIP point where I think SB personally lost the moral high ground as I think workers rights, civil rights are important. SB basically said no one should be allowed to work in the EU just because he can't even though millions other can. He also can not morally argue for equivalent ski instructor rights while at the same time not employing staff on equivalent remuneration terms to locals.

I can't be bothered to respond to erroneous personal comments.
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TTT wrote:
SB basically said no one should be allowed to work in the EU just because he can't even though millions other can.

Chapter and verse please. From what I can remember of proceedings at the time, this is not even close to what he said.
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He said on the UKIP video I recall that UK should pull out of the EU as it is not working. The EU rules works for millions including lots of ski instructors. The EU rules just don't work for SB. I think you will find that professional ski instructors are supportive of the EU as it allows them to work so SBs position comes across as entirely selfish and not in the interests of professional ski instructors.
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@TTT, it certainly seems that Switzerland (non-EU) is more liberal towards British ski instructors than France (EU). My memory is that he said the EU wasn't working as it should rather than directly advocating that the UK should pull out. Be that as it may, your recollection is nowhere near your statement that I quoted.
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I think you will find I said basically in the first statement. You have to read carefully as I keep saying. I'm pretty certain that he said UK should pull out. I doubt if he really believe that as career instructors normally have a pro staying in EU self interest.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Further SB did align himself with UKIP and UKIP want to pull out. That would take away automatic rights so does not support the SB supposed stance he is fighting for instructors. I'm not that gullible. CH is more liberal but they are also cracking down as well on regulations. I really hope for everyone's sake SB will follow rules there. And the anti-France is tedious as they are more liberal for professional instructors than other EU countries.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So does David Cameron because he disagrees with how the EU is being run. What's your point? It's Simon B so it's the wrong opinion; it's the Tory leader so let's not mention it.
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TTT wrote:
And the anti-France is tedious as they are more liberal for professional instructors than other EU countries.



Really? Please expand.


Which country is the odd one out - Austria, France, Switzerland, Germany or Italy?

Which country imposes restrictions on other nations instructors and wont allow them to work in a ski school without completing their own associations tests of TT/ET? The Swiss and Italians have both recently weakened the French argument.

As someone who does not hold a L4 qualification, one of those five is most definitely and very demonstrably less liberal.
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Cameron has said he want to renegoiate the rules. Depends on the specifics but in prinicple I have no problem. SB stated he wanted to pull out. That is a problem for me and other ski instructors.

People really need to read more carefully - I very deliberately said professional ski instructors and France is the best for these people. For me this is the most important group and the one that the EU rules are currently directed at as they are making a career out of ski instructing.

People just jump on the bits that they like and conveniently ignore the bits they don't like such as the employer breach convictions which suggests it is all just dogma from the SB TO acolytes and not a balanced assessment of the situation.

It's always been clear to me that ski instructing is not something I could make a living out of and it would just be a bit of casual hobby instructing work so I don't expect any particular rights other than some tempoary work in peak periods which is all that is generally on offer in the more liberal CH which people seem to forget is not part of the EU. I can't get excited about the right to snowplough for minimal or in the case of SB below minimal wages. I don't get the obsession with France either - lower levels havelimited optons to work elsewhere so doesn't matter in practice.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Where, other than France, are there a substantial number of British owned and operated ski schools?
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SB said "it just isn't working...... and the sooner we get out the better as far as I am concerned" which to use your style of argument look at the actual words, he is not actually saying we should be out he is saying it's not working and we therefore should be out, obviously leaving the scope for the issues to be resolved. Also that statement was to a ukip audience and clearly made to garner political support.


FWIW TTT i think you have done a lot of playing with words and dancing on the fence occasionally stepping off on one side or the other before quickly getting back on the fence.
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@TTT, you said you weren't a ski instructor. Assuming you aren't a fundamental particle either, you're either one or not.
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under a new name wrote:
@TTT, you said you weren't a ski instructor. Assuming you aren't a fundamental particle either, you're either one or not.


Going all TTT for a bit

He said he wasn't a professional ski instructor, by which he means he doesn't earn his living from ski instructor'ing Happy That of course does not preclude him from being a fully qualified (at whatever level) instructorer...

Haven't you learnt you need to read the words wink
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Well, I have to say that due to BASI's entertaining gap year instructors, there are many "instructors" who really, really aren't. Not onlynthose whomcould but don't.

If you don't do it professionally, i don't see how you can claim to be one. I'm a qualified physicist but have never, ever, evr in my life suggested anywhere that I am a physicist.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 22-11-14 13:02; edited 1 time in total
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TTT wrote:
People really need to read more carefully

So you keep saying. When many receivers get garbled messages from one transmitter only in a network, I know where I look to improve communications.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Sat 22-11-14 13:02; edited 1 time in total
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@laundryman, roflol Twisted Evil
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Rts, cts, dts, ack rotflmho
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Thank you ansta - I really could not watch that video again but I'd take that as SB advocating pulling out but yes I suspect he doesn't really believe it and he was playing to the audience.

I say when it is a personal view otherwise it isn't - the specific words and all the words when it comes down to the EU rules are what matters here. Some people just chose to ignore them when it does not suit the agenda otherwise I'm allowed some artistic license.

Some people just want their cosy convenient SB holidays which I understand with their illegal underpaid albeit voluntary servants who equivalent locals are not allowed. If they really believe in a free market then maybe they should try some other options as they seem unhealthily wedded to SB and imprisoned in dogmatic views and choices. Does not like sound to me like freedom to me. There is a host of other quality options to explore.
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@TTT, reduced to insults and false assumptions again.

Oops, sorry I forgot, somewhere you wrote you don't believe a word of your own propaganda and a had a private conversation once in which you may (or may not) have said something a bit different. rolling eyes
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@laundryman, lol quite rolling eyes
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You know it makes sense.
Seems some people are very easily excited and can't cope with a bit of teasing. Come on someone looks like he thinks that Alan Partridge is someone to be impersonated rather than a parody, one goes on strangulated rants and seems to think sunglasses are required indoors and the comments on the FB site are just bizarre. Some people are fine as long as it agrees with their views even if it is rubbish andd some people are just no fun at all.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Not much illumination on this thread in the past 24 hours. How about we deal with what the protagonists - Butler and BASI - are actually saying to each other? Time for some quoting and linking.

Firstly, just to impress everyone ... and in my capacity as a 21st-century news-linking ape in a relationship with a mouse ... I got a call yesterday afternoon from the man himself. Simon Butler phoned me about an hour ahead of an embargo (5pm) on a statement which was circulated by his lawyers. I forwarded that statement to BASI for comment, because it makes some strong allegations and requires a response (I do, after all, owe BASI great gratitude for the services it provided me in 1975, since it transformed my enjoyment and safety of skiing and provided a couple of years of hugely enjoyable work).

It's now the weekend and I've no intention of doing anything with the Butler lawyers' statement until - say - 12 noon on Monday ... by which time BASI will hopefully have prepared a counter-statement.

BASI did release this, on their website later yesterday afternoon, after a messenger called ...

http://www.basi.org.uk/article/petition---edinburgh-court-of-session-21st-november-2014.aspx

Quote:

Petition - Edinburgh Court of Session 21st November 2014

BASI Statement 21st November 2014


BASI can confirm that, at its registered office on 16.50pm on Friday 21st November 2014, a Messenger at Arms served a Petition by Simon Butler to the Court of Session and an interlocutor containing interim interdict and interim suspension order of the Court.

BASI has twenty one days within which to lodge answers to the Petition and will be taking legal advice on the matter.

Ends



BASI have also published to members the board minutes of their meeting of 1 November, when it was decided to expel Simon Butler.
They have also released to members a video of the AGM which took place immediately after that board meeting. Butler was expelled from membership a few minutes before that meeting began, but he remained in the room.

As a reminder, this is what BASI released on 3 November, to explain Simon Butler's expulsion (now apparently overturned by the Scottish court, at least in terms of his licence to teach skiing, which BASI had revoked) ...

http://www.basi.org.uk/article/basi-statement-cessation-of-membership-simon-butler.aspx

So, I've not quoted much at all from Simon Butler himself, despite his call. It is clear that he scored a significant win yesterday and needs little amplification at this moment. Further developments in the fracas can be talked about on Monday. As mentioned, Simon Butler is making serious allegations - which could well involve the stability of the board of BASI (from which two directors have already resigned in the past 3 weeks), and perhaps the individual careers of BASI personnel. This is generally acknowledged now as very high stakes stuff.

However, to be well informed of BASI members' views - in an independent environment where freedom of expression seems to prevail - you only need to follow the unofficial 'BASI - Members' Group' page of Facebook. Here you'll get the drift [a Scottish expression for useful accumulation and filling of snow] ...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/BASIMembers/
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@Comedy Goldsmith, I don't see that SB scored a significant win, he has basically had an injunction on the decision placed as they stupidly and probably for personal reasons ignored due process. They will now follow due process and ratify the decision or a variant of the decision (suspension) formally over the next 28 days.
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If that isn't a significant win, then I'm a banana

[adapted from Ian Hislop quote of 24 May 1989]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/24/newsid_2503000/2503595.stm
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@Comedy Goldsmith, thought you were going to be away....

Anyway, it's a win and a just and fair win, but not significant in my view as they, as in BASI, have not followed due process. It's an injunction holding off the inevitable for a while.
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@ansta1, I think the BASI board would be ill-advised to do that. They will have to spend members' funds attempting to demonstrate to a court that due process had been followed, leading to the correct conclusion and a proportionate sanction. It's hardly guaranteed that they will be able to do that and it's not at all clear that any member will benefit if they succeed.
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@laundryman, I am thinking that the BASI board have already been ill-advised.
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@laundryman,i am not sure i agree. The injunction is against the original "revoke" of his membership, i would assume they could follow the correct internal procedure and if ratified by the right people "formally suspend" his membership. I don't think this would be anything other than an internal process. What this would mean to SB is a separate question.

For the record I am not taking sides just stating an impartial viewpoint on the situation.
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Well the "significant win" would be for BASI to support their people and get this closed market nonsense sorted.

Meanwhile, I'd say that's an excellent victory, even if it proves to be short lived. That rather depends on what's in the injunction - do you have a copy?

UK ski organizations seem to have both poor legal advice and poor media relations - I wonder why.
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@philwig, agreed
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Just seen this online:

Rebel British Ski Instructor overturns national expulsion order.

Simon Butler, the British ski instructor who was arrested for teaching in France without the correct licence has today been granted an order from Scotland’s highest court preventing his national ski association from acting against the principles of natural justice.

.

Mr Butler was last month expelled by his accreditation body, the British Association of Snowsport Instructors, following his conviction despite there being an appeal outstanding.



Today lawyers acting for Mr Butler were granted an order by the Court of Session in Edinburgh to have his BASI membership reinstated immediately.

The Petition claims that senior members of BASI didn’t give Mr Butler the chance of a fair hearing and also had a conflict of interest against Mr Butler because of 'business interests' in the same ski resort, Megeve, France.

Iain Mitchell QC described BASI's decision to expel Mr Butler as a ' grotesque kangaroo court' and his lawyer, Niall Mickel, Solicitor Advocate, said that Mr Butler was absolutely delighted with the decision, and very much looked forward to pursuing his rights through the proper channels in the correct manner, apparently unlike his national association.

The next stage in Mr Butler's fight will be to sue BASI for failing to provide him with the correct support and paperwork to allow him to teach legally in France.
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Skibum82 wrote:


The next stage in Mr Butler's fight will be to sue BASI for failing to provide him with the correct support and paperwork to allow him to teach legally in France.


This bit I can understand. BASI have a lot of explaining to do on this part. They have made a stance in not supporting him (over a number of years) well now they need to declare once and for all why. Staring to get messy.
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