Poster: A snowHead
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Good Morning,
I'm starting to look at purchasing Off piste safety equipment ( Shovel, Probe and Beacon) and I was wondering if anyone had any advice on what I should look out for e.g buy a metal shovel not plastic , get a digital avalanche transceiver not analogue .
I've been looking predominately on the Ortovox website at their equipment. Any thoughts on the Zoom+ Avalanche Rescue Set or would it be better to get it all separately e.g. shovel and probe off ebay for instance.
Just for info I've also booked onto both the HAT essential and advanced talks to get a better education as well as reading Bruce Tremper's Avalanche essentials book and I plan once I purchase any equipment to find some transceiver practice courses. ( I think HAT also do these)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Metal shovel. Digital beacon. Any old probe.
My personal preference / suggestion: Ortovox Beast; DTS Tracker I or II. The latter nice and easy to use, which is a big plus.
A bag to put probe and shovel IN. That's to say inside, not strapped on the back of so they fall off on the lift and are gone when you need them...
I'm sure it's up to you where you buy. snowsafe (dot co dot uk) also do bundles and may be worth a look. eBay - why not? So long as it's working. If you have any worries you can send it off for a service. Though then it may become less of a bargain.
But I'm sure that for every 5 snowheads reading the thread you will get 10 other opinions...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I went all ortovox but shopped around and got some good deals. Ortovox beast shovel is a good bit of kit I wouldn't bother with plastic ones. Any probe wants to be 240 cm or more I went with the 240 light pfa and transceivers digital 3 antenna models are the way to go.
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thanks for the advice. I have purchased the Ortovox ladies 18L cross rider backpack so and there is a loop inside for the shovel I believe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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this may be a silly question, but do you need to go on any course to learn the best way to dig someone out if they are caught in an avalanche ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yeah I had an ortovox 18l pack and the one compartment fits all your emergency gear, only sold mine as it wasn't quite big enough for day hikes and the straps were a little uncomfortable when hiking with my board attached.
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Yeah there is a certain way to do it I imagine the avi talks will cover it.
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"any old probe"- received wisdom from having attended several training/briefing sessions over the years - is that you need _at least_ 2m, ideally 3m, probe, and it needs to be nice and wide and stiff (no sniggering at the back!). Oh, and it needs to be quick and easy to assemble wearing gloves.
Ortovox make good ones... (just read francium's reply - totally agree)
The spindly one I got from BCA is 'barely adequate', as it has a fiddly nut/wheel arrangement to tighten up, and in a stressed situation it wastes time.
If you're buying this stuff cos you might need to use it, then assume you'll actually need to use it, and buy appropriately.
Metal shovel. Plastic (in whatever form) is widely regarded as useless.
Transceiver - 3 antenna - start with the Mammut Element - tbh, there's not a lot of reason to choose anything different now.
Pay for/attend some training. Read some of the links in the sticky, particularly on digging....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Agree re probe - spindly bca one useless
If you're going to carry one it needs to work
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I just bought the Element, after looking at all the others it offers the best bang for your buck, I paid £226 from Holland for it. My mk1 BCA Tracker is now kept for lending out to friends. Carbon probes save a little weight and the instant lock works great, but as said, practice and then practice more, and develop the mindset of always watching the other members in your party and thinking "What would I do if a slide took them right now".
I used to have a knurled nut BCA probe, it's about 25 seconds to deploy which is not that much, but I now prefer the flick out and pull options.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have the Ortovox 320 probe, Kodiak Shovel (prefer it to the beast, but thats just my preference), the Free rider 18 and 24 packs and the 3+ transceiver (I like it because as a newbie I found it so easy to use)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Avi course's are really worth while.
Go for a metal shovel & probe and as far as beacon's go I use BCA!
All Beacons have pro's and con's you just need to have some idea of how your's works and get used to using it?
They can all get fairly confusing to use in certain situations, lots of practice help you with this.
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Not much to add to the kit chat above, but one of the things I've found quite useful is practice at special beacon training parks in some resorts. The training I've done on various courses has been useful, but I really liked being able to play around with the number of burials and number of searchers; it definitely brought home how long a search can take if you don't think and plan carefully.
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You know it makes sense.
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Snow_badger this is a good thread. I'm planning to get safety gear this season. I have a Dakine 22L pack. The reason why? It was comfortable. The Ortovox ones made me feel like a hunchback! I shall take the advice about metal probes and 2.4 m shovels (or the other way round). I'm going to go with guide/instructor's transceiver again this season. They know how to use them and it's in their interest to make sure I do. That way I might be able to afford my second trip .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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For the beacon, I use the tried and true Backcountry Access Tracker DTS Beacon. My main reason for this was that it is/has been the standard beacon the last 6 years, the buttons are big, and there are little to no adjustments to be made. My thinking is that IF I have to use this, I want to be 100% sure that it does what its supposed to. I think ppl get caught up in all the super duper features a beacon can offer, when the reality is, if you have to use it, you will be bricking it and adrenaline will be powering through you...keep it simple.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dear Lord no!!! A probe should be at least 2 Meters and have numerical markings on the side to indicate depth, this helps with marking a starting point for digging,
Also no point in having all of the above if you dont know how to use it and practice regularly!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have got two full sets for sale, pm me if you want to know more.... Arva beacon etc....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Fattes13 wrote: |
Dear Lord no!!! A probe should be at least 2 Meters and have numerical markings on the side to indicate depth, this helps with marking a starting point for digging,
Also no point in having all of the above if you dont know how to use it and practice regularly! |
Fattes13 is right, the chances of you finding someone at 1M never mind 3 meters are pretty well approaching zero.
It's difficult to practice too, if you were one of the zero zero zero X percent of people who used a transceiver in receive mode, I'm pretty sure adrenalin and panic would have more than minimal effect.
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Last week I bought 2x BCA Tracker 2 complete with 240 cm probe and shovel with extendable handle for €250 (£200) each from Sport Conrad. No doubt someone will come along having purchased same for half that price, but I think this is a very good deal for a starter set.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ill keep looking for the right transceiver. As@Lilledonmarco, has mentioned I just want something that if the worse were to happen, and the adrenaline is pumping, something simple is what Im going to need.
Sounds like an Ortovox prove over 240cm could be the way to go. As for shovel, I'm assuming something that is wide enough that I can get my snowboard boot on it and apply a decent amount of pressure without it slipping off ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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snow_badger wrote: |
Ill keep looking for the right transceiver. As@Lilledonmarco, has mentioned I just want something that if the worse were to happen, and the adrenaline is pumping, something simple is what Im going to need.
Sounds like an Ortovox prove over 240cm could be the way to go. As for shovel, I'm assuming something that is wide enough that I can get my snowboard boot on it and apply a decent amount of pressure without it slipping off ? |
Might be good to go on an avalanche course first before you buy because then you will ''know'' a set of equipment and have used it in the field and done various drills with it. Shovel wise the technique is not the same as digging a trench in a field so dont worry about getting your snowboot on it...
For what it is worth i like BCA tracker 2 but it is not as low profile as some.
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@snow_badger, spot on re shovel it needs to have a flat top to take a boot, also check it fits in your bag.
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Bit confused if the shovel needs to be able to fit my snowboard boot on top or not by the last posts by @jbob, and @chrisJersey,
I'm planning on attending the HAT beeper training at the end of Nov but this will be with a borrowed transceiver most likely.
I live very close to Lockwoods in Leamington, so I may take my backpack there and have a look at their shovels to see if they will fit in ok
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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when you look at a shovel think about how you like to hold it/ whether you where gloves or mits. I went for the ortovox kodiak because i like the enclosed handles and its nifty features where as a lot of people like the beast - the beast has a t-bar handle. my shovel and probe fit nicely into the seperate compartment in the Freerider 18 pack i have. Have a chat with tim at snow shepherd but i believe all ortovox shovels and probes fit into their packs.
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@snow_badger, if the snow is hard then like a garden spade an avalanche shovel might need some help from your foot, not easy if the top of the shovel is curved.. What condition the casualty will be in is another question.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Quote: |
spindly one ... is barely adequate
fiddly nut/wheel arrangement to tighten up
at least 2 Meters
markings on the side |
Wow... I had no idea you could buy such rubbish probes! But, I stand corrected. How about "any half-decent probe" ... ?
Not totally convinced by numerical markings on the side. Probes are segmented (on mine the segment colour alternates) and you know the segment length and how many it has in total. Is it that hard to see how many are still sticking out?
Wasn't far off on the opinions though...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fortunately it was when trying my BCA probe in the Les Arcs ARVA park that I found out how rubbish it was !
It was bending every time I tried to use it ..... yes snow very trodden and compact ... but have seen similar hard compact snow (and worse) in real life avalanches.
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i think ill go with the ortovox then
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You know it makes sense.
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In case anyone is interested I found this review of shovels from a few years ago. Whilst the models may not be up to date I believe the specifics and characteristics of what should be looked for in a good shovel remains valid
http://www.voile.com/AvalancheVol86_54-60.pdf
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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bobski62 wrote: |
Not totally convinced by numerical markings on the side. Probes are segmented (on mine the segment colour alternates) and you know the segment length and how many it has in total.... |
Sturdy 3m probe that you can wip out of your bag, cast out in front of you, pull cable so all comes together in a literally a few seconds is a must.
Calibrated height markings on a probe are also valuable when digging a pit so you know and can record where the various layers are as saves having to a carry a folding rule - using two probes in a pit can be so much easier.
The right shovel is also important when carrying out a tap test in a pit as well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Another vote for Sport Conrad just bought my son Arva transceiver, shovel and probe, 210 Euros, big saving on UK prices, if your not a climber or Alpiniste it's worth at least reading avalanche reports in the resort every day, and knowing how to use the transceiver and probe. You can translate them on google if you don't speak the language.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Finding one buried transciever is fairly easy with modern digital kit. Practice with more than one burial if you can - it is really tricky and needs practice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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not sure if I've ever got past 2 meters in the snow pack in a post ave path before, but i guess you can
but if you wanna be the biggest swinging probe... this is what you need...
http://www.avatech.com/#
get it all done before.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@snow_badger, here are two interesting resources and I have received feedback that people have found the first resource very useful - if you follow the interactive training through to its conclusion it shows you how to search and dig and I think the basic techniques will apply to most transceivers, FWIW the Ortovox Zoom + is very easy to use - that's what I bought for my kids.
Links are here:
http://www.mammut.ch/barryvoxtraining (as mentioned above I think its useful if you have any brand of transceiver), and if you ever wondered why initially the transceivers take you in circles the answer is here: http://www.fsavalanche.org/encyclopedia/avalanche_transceiver.htm
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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As technological advances improve transceivers, is it better to hire new ones in resort rather than buy for use only a few days a year?
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No - get your own and make sure you know how to use it ..... resort rentals will likely be a wide variety older kit too as I would think there is relatively little demand .... as we've all got our own
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Quote: |
As technological advances improve transceivers, is it better to hire new ones in resort rather than buy for use only a few days a year?
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Quite the opposite I think. Even old equipment works very well if you know it well, are at home with it and know its foibles. In short old stuff that you are well practised with beats state of the art than you haven't used much.
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Have there been any recent technological advances that have measurably improved transceiver performance? Seems like its mostly been about fiddling with secondary features since we got 3-antenna digital devices.
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