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New Avalanche Airbag Study

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Seems to come to pretty much the same conclusion as Bruce Tremper did.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24909367# (only abstract here, not sure if there's a full text available for free yet)

tl;dr: using an airbag halves your risk of death in an avalanche, but that still leaves an 11% chance of getting killed if you get caught.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Serriadh, so, to read between the lines, Tremoer's (?) oft repeated maxim that the best way to survive an avalanche is not to get caught in one holds.

I'd submit that if you are a guiding pro, it's an essential bit of kit as thing do go wrong.

Maybe not so much for those who aren't exposed so often.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Eh, I'd say that 50% reduction is a pretty positive statistic... the only thing that doesn't make them standard equipment is cost and inconvenience of refills/air travel, etc, though maybe descendents of the new black diamond bag will help with that.

Quote:
Tremoer's


Definitely Tremper wink

His original post of airbag effectiveness from winter before last... http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth
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Serriadh wrote:
Eh, I'd say that 50% reduction is a pretty positive statistic.


The article is much more nuanced than that though
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Sure, but they didn't take away from the core message.

There's the bit where they estimate that airbag users' failure to trigger might account for another couple of percent of deaths which is interesting, too.
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Serriadh wrote:
Sure, but they didn't take away from the core message.

There's the bit where they estimate that airbag users' failure to trigger might account for another couple of percent of death which is interesting, too.


They mix different types of users in the figure you quote. Obviously the figures are probably too low to make any definite arguments. However as you say user issues account for a number of deaths. One could imagine that pro users would be more likely to be able to wear and use their airbag correctly. So this is obviously an area where improvements could be made to the figures, either by better airbag designs or better user education.

The big take away for me was that users increasing the risks they take could quickly nullify any advantage the airbag gives them. Now my feeling, based on what I see, is that there is an issue with experienced amateurs (generally inexperienced amateurs are skiing with guides who will be taking them on well worn trade routes) but that increasing risk doesn't outweigh the safety benefits of airbag use. However we'll have to see how this develops as use becomes more widespread. Certainly the 97% survival rate quoted by ABS in their marketing was a bad message to give users.

The other big take way is that your chance of dying in an avalanche is pretty remote anyway.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
davidof, what puzzles me is that over recent years there has been a huge increase in people going off piste and touring, but the numbers killed has not risen by the same amount if at all. The reason for this anomaly could be many. I'll list a few that spring to mind.
-more skiers more consolidation
-training
-Technology use
-resort management
-slopes slide once
-warmer winters

The other side of the coin is that I see in chamonix people taking more risks through, ignorance, excitment, culture, equipment improvement, and the robocop mentality.

I don't know if I'm kidding myself but on busy days I'll always be off piste as I'm too scared to ski on piste.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jbob wrote:
davidof, what puzzles me is that over recent years there has been a huge increase in people going off piste and touring, but the numbers killed has not risen by the same amount if at all.


There has obviously been a big increase in awareness and equipment used (beacons, better beacons, airbags) but consolidation on popular routes must be a big factor too. If anything the people skiing popular routes has increased out of proportion to less popular routes.
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jbob wrote:
the robocop mentality.


Uh, I'm having a hard time working out how robocop applies to skiing. Dead or alive, you're skiing with me? Put down the gopro, you have 20 seconds to comply? I'm guessing it isn't just plain "stay out of trouble"...
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Serriadh, I'm thinking that by the time you have donned all the protective equipment, helmet, visor, back protector, impact shorts, airbag etc, you might start to think you are invincible.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:

Dead or alive, you're skiing with me? Put down the gopro, you have 20 seconds to comply?


Love it Toofy Grin

Its funny really my Livetoski name came from what we used to say back in the 80's Live To Ski, Ski to Die! I dropped the second bit obviously.

The research in question was about a month ago when it was published but not able to get a full copy yet, as davidof, says its to early to get proper statistics and I agree the ABS quoted figure was always a bit odd!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15772502 is interesting- it was a link in pubmed
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
if anyone wants a full copy of the text PM me
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I still notice on the gopro videos...people off piste with airbags who should have left them at home...

Eg...http://youtube.com/v/Pd-nJuPPx5g

At the point 1:55ish and 2:17ish where the professional instructors show off...both have their ABS packs disabled with the velcro strap.

Hmm.

(And this is not the only film of that instructor group totally failing).
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Also here :
http://youtube.com/v/TtO1J2GMvi4

where Emma clearly has not used the leg loop and her trigger handle guard is firmly preventing triggering at all points.

Her boss, does seem to know how to use the guard in this video, but not the leg loop.

Sigh.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I'm a leg loop denier.
I hate it, guess I need to get in line.
The handle thing is easy on a Mammut, it's either in the pocket or it's not. I have felt much better since doing a live firing, and now trust it to work, and some. The bottle swap at the Mammut was very easy and cheap, they even gave me full trade in for the steel bottle when I up graded.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jbob wrote:
I'm a leg loop denier.
I hate it, guess I need to get in line.
The handle thing is easy on a Mammut, it's either in the pocket or it's not. I have felt much better since doing a live firing, and now trust it to work, and some. The bottle swap at the Mammut was very easy and cheap, they even gave me full trade in for the steel bottle when I up graded.


How much is a bottle swap for a Mummut pack? (a carbon one if it makes a difference)
Where in the UK would i be best to swap it?

Thanks
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
lampbus wrote:
I still notice on the gopro videos...people off piste with airbags who should have left them at home...

Eg...http://youtube.com/v/Pd-nJuPPx5g

At the point 1:55ish and 2:17ish where the professional instructors show off...both have their ABS packs disabled with the velcro strap.

Hmm.

(And this is not the only film of that instructor group totally failing).


But there was no need for airbags anyway because nothing but a downhill pushing pisten bully was going to get any of the snow in that video to move. As for "skiing all the way down with boots undone", well GTF !! I do that by accident, without paying for the pleasure, far too many times a season. Toofy Grin

Video 2 was great viewing though. Cool
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jbob, what do you do with the leg loop ? I have a Mammut snowpulse, which for on piste work I run the loop up and tuck it into the top of the handle zipper. It is snug there for most handling (so it dosnt drag on the ground and trip me up).

For off piste, it is an extra thing to rig but I am getting better at casually swinging it through and catching the end...it adds all of 10 seconds to the routine.

moffatross, it's hard to tell without being there but yes, the filmed pitch looks low risk. (but early season, on an unconsolidated / warm base?)

But then...there are very few people who thought 'wow, that slope is defo goinna slide, I will prep my airbag and go try it out'.
We have these things because we don't know when it will slide...even with all the other assessments in place.

Every pitch is different in altitude and orientation and wind etc...and it only needs one 10 meter pitch in all of them to catch and bury you. Instructors and guides are at higher risk simply because they expose themselves to risk every week of the season rather than the rest of us.

They also passed through avalanche fences...a clear sign of high risk terrain (Even though there appears to be only a skim of snow there).
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jbob wrote:
I'm a leg loop denier.
I hate it, guess I need to get in line.
The handle thing is easy on a Mammut, it's either in the pocket or it's not. I have felt much better since doing a live firing, and now trust it to work, and some. The bottle swap at the Mammut was very easy and cheap, they even gave me full trade in for the steel bottle when I up graded.


Same with my BCA Float. The toggle is very definitely in or out, no way to mistake it. Also, I like that I can take my bottle to the local paintball place and get it filled for free.
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feef wrote:


Same with my BCA Float. The toggle is very definitely in or out, no way to mistake it. Also, I like that I can take my bottle to the local paintball place and get it filled for free.


That was the clincher for me with travel to North America etc - most Walmarts can give you a fill.

BCA leg loop is also fairly nifty - totally removable, stashes in the waist belt when not in use.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Serriadh wrote:
Eh, I'd say that 50% reduction is a pretty positive statistic... the only thing that doesn't make them standard equipment is cost and inconvenience of refills/air travel, etc, though maybe descendents of the new black diamond bag will help with that.

Quote:
Tremoer's


Definitely Tremper wink

His original post of airbag effectiveness from winter before last... http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth


Note that Tremper is, at the end of his article, referencing the early results from Haegeli, who is the lead researcher in the article in the OP.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Serriadh wrote:
Eh, I'd say that 50% reduction is a pretty positive statistic... the only thing that doesn't make them standard equipment is cost and inconvenience of refills/air travel, etc, though maybe descendents of the new black diamond bag will help with that.

Quote:
Tremoer's


Definitely Tremper wink

His original post of airbag effectiveness from winter before last... http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth


Note that Tremper is, at the end of his article, referencing the early results from Haegeli, who is the lead researcher in the article in the OP.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
qwertyuiop7, refill 10 euro, swap to carbon 99euro with trade in. All done in Mammut shop in chamonix who are excellent.

lampbus, on my snowpluse I've been sticking the leg loop in the little zipped pocket. Until now!

The skiing with the boots undone was a "drill" to improve stance and balance, and very effective it was too, only problem with it was it stopped your bindings working properly, I think it's been stopped because it's too dangerous. XC skiing does the same. Shocked
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Just to add some time ago via my facebook page I had a rant over the velcro still in place on abs handles, it is still possible to fire the ABS with the velcro in place, but it was not designed this way and may, require extra force to deploy!

On cylinder refills then all Mammut retailers will do the exchange now, plus also valid for ABS, the days of high costs for cylinders is gone! Postage costs via courier is the biggest part for me!!!!
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
For the leg loop on my mammut snowpuse i just use a basic screwgate carabiner, £10 from a climbing shop. Shorten the strap slightly, clip it to the side of the waist belt when i don't need it and clip it through the legs when i do.
Takes seconds, not big enough to hurt if you fall on it and loads easier with your big down mitts on.

Phil
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Re : leg loops
Couple of victims in chamonix 2 winters ago had been strangled by the chest strap riding up around their neck.
Not a nice thought... But focuses the mind what the leg loops do

Re : trigger.
It is a good mental exercise to ask focus the mind and ask yourself *why* you are deploying the trigger.
They are risks associated with leaving the trigger open all day.
Obvious one being accidental deployment on a chairlift etc.

i think a key point from the excellent tremper / slf articles is that some avalanches, due to terrain / size <etc>, will always be unsurvivable.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Haggis_Trap, despite being a bit of a fag, I always stow the handle on the lift and nearly always when I'm in trees.
qwertyuiop7, good tip on the crab, I'll try that.

On the risk factor thing, I have always thought of it as, if your head goes under the snow your looking at a gun with 5 bullets and an empty chamber, with all the gear, you get a second empty chamber, which isn't enough of a difference to start sticking your neck out. The persuasive thing for me about the airbag is it may keep your head above the snow in the first place. Your not going to survive a big one or being swept over a big cliff.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
What is the current thought as to the best brand for use in Europe ?

The rechargeable BCA is tempting as I have a divers bottle for refilling other compressed air items but it seems you can't fly with the cylinders charged ?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
AndAnotherThing.., I was tempted by the self refilling thing but now it's reasonably cheap and easy I'm not bothered. Interestingly Mammut originally had self refillable bottles and had it as a feature that you had a breathable bubble around you, but when they went to the sealed bottles they used co2 I think.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
What is the current thought as to the best brand for use in Europe ?

The rechargeable BCA is tempting as I have a divers bottle for refilling other compressed air items but it seems you can't fly with the cylinders charged ?


Yes you can.

Although you should be able to. It depends on the airline and IME, some aren't reading the most recent regs.

I've flown with my BCA fully charged without issue, but I've always confirmed it with the airline beforehand

I covered this last season:

http://www.powpowpow.org/flying-with-your-airbag-whats-the-score/

http://www.powpowpow.org/an-open-letter-to-easyjet/

Although domestic flights in North America are an exception
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jbob wrote:
The skiing with the boots undone was a "drill" to improve stance and balance ...


The entire post was intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. wink

Truthfully, I can't help but feel slightly unnerved skiing in the company of others that're using bags, when I'm the only one in the group that isn't. This feeling occurred on a couple of days last season at Glencoe, when its upper mountain was open to foot passengers only after more huge storm-blown powder dumps, and I'd hooked up with groups skiing the East Ridge runs. There's no logic to it except for asking myself the analogue question, would I feel comfortable as the only non-helmet wearer in a group skiing the rocky gully ? Which then begs the question, why do some bag-equipped skiers choose not to wear helmets ...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
jbob wrote:
AndAnotherThing.., I was tempted by the self refilling thing but now it's reasonably cheap and easy I'm not bothered. Interestingly Mammut originally had self refillable bottles and had it as a feature that you had a breathable bubble around you, but when they went to the sealed bottles they used co2 I think.


not sure the idea was ever that you breathe the gas in the bag, just that if the bag creates a space around your head, you are less likely to get an ice mask forming around your mouth and nose
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feef, Cheers, I'll have a read.

edit - did easy jet get back to you ?


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 21-10-14 14:17; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
moffatross, as someone who sometimes wears a bag but not a helmet (fnar!), the logic usually is that I only take one bag with me on a trip so I carry it even if the snow is all bullet-proof. I don't generally bother with a helmet if I am touring on the basis that I spend at least 5/6 of the time going up and carrying the helmet, I generally ski more conservatively than I do when skiing from lifts and there are no blue run heroes around to take me out
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moffatross, before I got the bag I was quite happy without, now I have a nagging feeling if I'm off piste without it! I do often ski without a helmet. The friend I skied a lot with last year feels the same as you, she's thinking of getting one just from being with me.

I spoke to a Courmayeur guide who said the same about helmets, he had skied for decades without, not giving it a second thought, but sometime after he started to use one regularly, he forgot it one day and felt he had to go a long way back home to fetch it.

I guess it's the same with car seat belts. I drove without one for years, then Jimmy Saviles nagging got me wearing one and I wouldn't drive 100m without one now.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
AndAnotherThing.. wrote:
feef, Cheers, I'll have a read.

edit - did easy jet get back to you ?

Nope.. never, and that was after tweeting, emailing and facebooking about the article.

I should really follow it up.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Arno wrote:
jbob wrote:
AndAnotherThing.., I was tempted by the self refilling thing but now it's reasonably cheap and easy I'm not bothered. Interestingly Mammut originally had self refillable bottles and had it as a feature that you had a breathable bubble around you, but when they went to the sealed bottles they used co2 I think.


not sure the idea was ever that you breathe the gas in the bag, just that if the bag creates a space around your head, you are less likely to get an ice mask forming around your mouth and nose


The BlackDiamond Jetforce deliberately deflates the bag after 3 minutes to help create an air pocket around your head area.
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moffatross wrote:
jbob wrote:
The skiing with the boots undone was a "drill" to improve stance and balance ...


The entire post was intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. wink

Truthfully, I can't help but feel slightly unnerved skiing in the company of others that're using bags, when I'm the only one in the group that isn't. This feeling occurred on a couple of days last season at Glencoe, when its upper mountain was open to foot passengers only after more huge storm-blown powder dumps, and I'd hooked up with groups skiing the East Ridge runs. There's no logic to it except for asking myself the analogue question, would I feel comfortable as the only non-helmet wearer in a group skiing the rocky gully ? Which then begs the question, why do some bag-equipped skiers choose not to wear helmets ...


... nothing wrong with hanging back and letting the group(s) in front of you open the run and detonate the booby traps.
in my more elder years have come to the conclusion that "2nd tracks" are often so much better on a powder day Wink

say this slightly tongue in cheek - but most resorts on a powder day have no shortage of stability test dummys.
the problem is that *most* of the time when people ski a suspect slope nothing happens
most people (wrongly) then think they made a good snow science decision which allowed them to ski a nice run.
.... it is an easy trap to fall into (and which I have fallen into myself in the past).
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Arno, it was mentioned in the blurb as a benefit.

Of more direct importance, I once read a Canadian rescue guy say that everyone of the people he had dug out of an avalanche alive had managed to get their hands/arms in front of their face.
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