 Poster: A snowHead
|
Le Ski have just announced via twitter that their appeal has been rejected.
I know the SCGB are arguing different points with their case and it has been delayed. But both Le Ski and SCGB do use the same lawyer.
What do you think the outcome will be?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I would doubt any ski hosting this season - not sure how much of a difference it will make to bookings
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
It changes nothing. Ski Hosting was illegal to start with, the judgment only reflects that. What happens at a local level is what is important. The attitudes in the 3 Valleys are not the same as those in other French resorts.
It also helps if you don't spend years antagonising the locals.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
What are they appealing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I meant the outcome for SCGB sorry, i should have been more specific.
I wonder if other countries will stop ski hosting. I know it isn't allowed in certain resorts in Austria and Switzerland but not a country wide ban as such.
They were appealing so that they would be allowed to offer ski hosting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Given that scgb are a commercial organisation selling hosting as part of their service too I can't see it will be any different, and knowing courts once a decision is made it will need to be pretty compelling for them to be treated differently.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The SCGB are arguing on a different point of law. Technically they don't sell ski hosting they sell the "membership" .
I don't think its looking good for the SCGB to be honest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skiorboard, TOs don't sell hosting either, they sell holidays where that is part of the package. Personally, unless a pretty massive backhander happens I can't see a different outcome - the whole point of this is the french courts backing the french esf. Sadly all involved end up losing out if customers go elsewhere, which I can see happening on principle for a fair few customers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
It's not the Esf pushing this, it's the Sports Minister because unqualified ski guiding is against national law. That law has been in existence for decades, it is not something new brought in just to punish Brits. If a Frenchman drives at 80mph, as is legal in France, on a British motorway he doesn't get done by the RAC (a ridiculous example that's equally as ridiculous as a ski school arresting and prosecuting chalet staff).
Le Ski can't just go to Europe directly, local process has to be exhausted first. Local judges cannot set aside national laws, even of they want to. On examining the facts, the judge decides on which side they fall according to the law.
Le Ski were fined barely anthing for the ski hosting. The biggest part of their fine was for not paying their employees the French minimum wage and other working legislation violations! Would love to see if they appealed that bit, and if their staff will be paid legally this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A bit more info on the court case here
Quote: The original case was brought by the French authorities with the full backing of the ESF. Le Ski had been ordered to pay damages to the ESF of €9,000; with €5,000 payable to the ESF in Meribel and €4,000 for the national ESF based in Grenoble.
"There is no surprise from us in the ESF that the appeal was lost and the court has made its judgement," said a director of the ESF, Simon Atkinson, to PlanetSKI. He is an ESF director in the resort of La Rosiere. "The legal grounds for the appeal were dubious and Le Ski had no leg to stand on," he added.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
A bit more info on the court case here
|
And as was said above, a ban wasn't imposed last year but has always existed, it was just that Le Ski were prosecuted last year but there have been prior cases. The Peanutski reportage is like saying "France bans speeding brits", just because a Brit has been caught doing over 130kp/h on the autoroute.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| davidof wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
A bit more info on the court case here
|
And as was said above, a ban wasn't imposed last year but has always existed, it was just that Le Ski were prosecuted last year but there have been prior cases. The Peanutski reportage is like saying "France bans speeding brits", just because a Brit has been caught doing over 130kp/h on the autoroute. |
And the RAC 'fully supporting' the prosecution of speeding foreign drivers in the UK. It is interesting that the ESF attached themselves rather than the bureau de guides, but presumably the French suspect the ski hosts of teaching not guiding? Would love to see the transcripts when it gets to a higher court.
p.s. Also not quite correct to say ski hosting is illegal or banned; if the hosts are qualified as the law requires they can of course do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All a bit parochially English isn't it? What are piste maps for?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
A fair point, under a new name, but Ski Guiding also helped us to meet and ski with other guests, and take out the common time-waster of "Where are we going to go now?".
It made for lots of skiing and lots of fun, and often going to place you wouldn't have gone if only armed with the piste map.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I wouldn't mind betting that Skifriends (Belgian TO) will still be guiding next season, they were last. The French don't seem to be bothering going after their neighbours.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Claude B, that might be the British perspective but it's quite incorrect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
It isn't incorrect , Skifriends could be clearly seen guiding their guests around the slopes last winter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
The Le Ski court case in Albertville has had coverage on several other ski sites ...
[That's quite enough - Ed] |
churnalism.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| It isn't incorrect , Skifriends could be clearly seen guiding their guests around the slopes last winter. |
They have to be caught doing it though - that either requires one of the ski schools to lodge a complaint or for the DJS to do a spot check. It might be interesting to know the ESF's opinion down your way - they were complaining about illegal ski hosts from Poland but local plod were not very motivated to catch them. I suspect, as was said above, the long litany of labour law infractions are what the govt. were really going after in the le Ski case.
BTW I've nothing against ski hosting, I think the French are being back bottoms really.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
davidof, it wasn't here it was in Les Deux-Alpes. UK tour ops weren't guiding here .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Hells Bells wrote: |
| It isn't incorrect , Skifriends could be clearly seen guiding their guests around the slopes last winter. |
 That the French are not going after their neighbours is incorrect, clearly we could all find an example of someone who is getting away with it but the French are stopping everyone they suspect of illegally guiding or teaching, not just Brits. Hardly any surprise it doesn't get in the British media when they arrest a Polish instructor though as that doesn't suit the way this is being presented.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| davidof wrote: |
| churnalism |
Sure, you've used the word before, as has - in significantly more distinguished terms - Nick Davies etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churnalism
I did a one-day investigative journalism seminar with Nick Davies and David Leigh at City Uni a few years ago. A brilliant day, with journalists who have repeatedly exposed huge scandals in British public life. This is a very valid word and - of course - churnalism is best avoided.
What did you want? Teams of journalists with translators in an Albertville courtroom? Don't be bloody ridiculous. What did your site PisteHors.com generate on this?
As it happens, most of the links above are to quite informative articles, I'd have thought. They certainly borrow material from the defendant in the case, via a press released statement. Nothing wrong with that - they're hardly puff-pieces for ski holidays. I saw that a couple of the journalists had taken the trouble to phone the MD of Le Ski to get original quotes/insights.
What do you expect for 'sweet FA'?
Sometimes I get the impression you're a bit stuck-up with your 'churnalism' jibes. The simple fact is that there is a huge amount of greatly worthwhile journalism on the internet, and I think those ski sites above do a pretty good job in keeping British skiers informed.
[end of rant]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"Churnalism" - "Journalism in which press releases, wire stories and other forms of pre-packaged material are used to create articles in newspapers and other news media in order to meet increasing pressures of time and cost without undertaking further research or checking." Definition continued on pages 1-76...
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
Sometimes I get the impression you're a bit stuck-up with your 'churnalism' jibes. The simple fact is that there is a huge amount of greatly worthwhile journalism on the internet, and I think those ski sites above do a pretty good job in keeping British skiers informed.
|
I see you are off the meds again David.
A quick google search reveals that you are the only person to have ever used the term "churnalism" before on Snowheads.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
davidof's last scoop
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poland are hardly near neighbours! Tbf I know the Swiss were pursued in PDS too. Counter productive imo I believe esf in L2A suffered really badly last year lots of work going to other schools from UK TOs etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Claude B, the Swiss were pursued for poaching.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Going back to the original question - the resorts give accommodation and lift passes to the SCGB reps so they clearly feel the club is to their benefit. Guiding (including some off piste) is the raison d'etre of the reps so if they can't guide they would go. The Reps are the main reason most people belong to the Ski Club - along with the holidays - so probably only the Fresh Tracks holiday company would survive.
So, does what the resorts' tourist offices think have any sway or is this all out of their control?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Claude B wrote: |
| Poland are hardly near neighbours! Tbf I know the Swiss were pursued in PDS too. Counter productive imo I believe esf in L2A suffered really badly last year lots of work going to other schools from UK TOs etc. |
Two Swiss instructors were arrested in Megeve (where Mr Simon Butler famously has the same problems) over four years ago! Again, all this is nothing new, the authorities are just turning their attention to it more and more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
It may well be that it is illegal in France and they are well within their rights to enforce it, but I do think that they may want to revisit there position in light of tourism going forward. I just can't see how this is going to help them in any way.
Personally I think that they are shooting themselves in the foot, a lot of people will choose to ski in other countries because of this which is a shame. My wife when she was looking for resorts to purchase our ski apartment, deliberately confined her search to those that had SCGB hosts present as she was single at the time and wanted to ensure she would always have a group to ski with.
I don't think that it damages their business, I am an intermediate to advanced skier, and the majority of my holidays I want to just ski not take lessons, I tend to have maybe 1 lesson near the beginning of season to tighten up any sloppiness and then maybe another some point in the season if there is an area of my ski-ing I want to work on (this year will be all about bumps I think, I handle em, but I am not gracious)
The presence of the ski club of GB has never had any bearing on the amount of lessons I take, most of the time I ski with my family and often my wife and I ski with the club when the other has to look after our daughter so we can ski with company. All this recent activity has done has made me determined to use an English Ski school in the linderet rather than ESF for the lessons I do have, so they have actually driven business away. Not because I want to punish them, but because the only way to make my feelings felt is to vote with my feet/euros in this day and age that is generally the only way to convey the need for change to an organization as set in its ways as ESF.
G
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
"are just turning their attention to it more and more"
No, they've (the french) been on and off arresting people for unlicensed ski hosting since at least 1990.
gordonrussell76, you arguments are those used every year and while valid, the union of the ESF is not prepared to give up.
It is a slightly French problem in that it's a primarily UK concept (like chalet holidays) and tends to be associated with France less so other Alpine nations.
Re the Swiss, the PdS problem was that some Swiss inatructors were picking up and dropping off clients on the French side of the border in patent disregard for the local gentlemans agreement on who did business where.
Given that Megeve is somewhat distant from the Swiss border, I can't imagine how they ended up there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Wow, thats quite the list, well looks like we are well on our way to playing catch up.
I love the fact that English wine is a protected geographical status, surely it should be more of a WARNING label 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reading another thread I saw a reference to Snivel, which I'd never heard of 
Had a quick look and there was a item saying that Le Ski has indeed gone to appeal at the supreme court in Paris.
I'm not going to add my tuppence worth since the arguments have already been made, but I believe gordonrussell76, might well be right; more people will choose to spend their hard earned money somewhere else if the ruling stands.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
 The link shows cornish pasty as having PGI (protected geographical indication) status.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I doubt whether it'll make much difference one way or another. I believe that St Anton bans ski hosting too (and there are very few independent British ski schools in Austria, in part for protectionist reasons) and the Italians have also done a fair bit of chasing of their own, as has been reported here on Snowheads, but that doesn't stop lots of people wanting to go to St Anton or to Italy, because they have other strong points in their favour. Most skiers in France are French, so they'd probably not be too sorry to have fewer Brits around, anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
