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BASI members working rights in the EU

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I have started a survey so that BASI members can add their thoughts on a 10 question Survey to gauge opinion on what BASI's negotiation team should press for on the upcoming meetings to determine the legal framework for working in Europe. When answering try to bear in mind that our representatives will be trying to reach compromise with all other EU nations.

Please only participate if you are a BASI member

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/PX636V8
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
As more than a few participated in the survey after seeing the link here on SH's I thought I would put the results up here.

Sadly the big meeting this week in Brussels with all EU member states was cancelled at the last minute. Apparently it will be rescheduled and in the interim the Commission is proposing that the Pilot MoU is to be extended for yet another year and the only the nations who signed up to the MoU will be invited to a meeting to discuss the EuroTest and EMS criteria. Pathetic really...

http://pleva.net/resources/BASI-Survey-Full-Report-and-Summary3.pdf
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Thanks for reporting back with the data - it makes for interesting reading, particularly how achieving L4 seems to result in a significant change in opinion on most of these issues. Perhaps that isn't surprising, but I was a bit taken aback at the size of the swing.
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kieranm, agreed and what surprised me was the very high proportion of L3 and 4 taking survey, I assumed that it would be mainly L1 and L2 venting spleen on the Eurotest, but it was very professional and balanced in my view...
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ahhh, I thought that read "BASI members working nights" and I thought it was particularly dedicated, and a bit dark.
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
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Encouragingly BASI wish to do an Official survey on this subject to all members Sorry for the long post but below is a draft for comment. If you are a BASI member please let me have any thoughts.

Survey of BASI members’ opinions on EU employment rights

BASI’s Board of Management is currently in negotiations with the European Commission on finalizing the pilot Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) into a legally binding “delegated act” that will be voted on by all 28 EU member states in the coming months. The delegated act, when agreed by the EU, will categorically determine your detailed working rights within Europe. The European Commission has stated that the delegated act which details the rules regarding free movement of labour for snowsports instructors will be implemented in two phases. The first phase will consider the rules for Right of Establishment for instructors whose home nation is one of the 28 member states but who wish to work in another EU country (the host nation) on a permanent basis, with the same employment rights as instructors from the host nation. The European Commission has stated that the second phase of negotiations will consider the employment rights of snowsports instructors who wish to work on a temporary and occasional basis in European host nation. The European laws which enable working rights for these two groups of EU nationals are well established, with EU directives agreed and implemented into each nation’s laws in 1992, 2005 and the latest directive approved by the EU in 2013.
Broadly, the Right of Establishment only concerns those at the highest level in a discipline and temporary and occasional working rights is for trainees in single tier instructor systems as per France and Italy or lower level instructors who only wish to work occasionally or who are training for higher level of qualification as in the BASI system. As per the directive a professional can provide their services in another EU nation on a “temporary and occasional basis” if the profession in their home nation is regulated or if they have been practising their profession in their home nation for at least two of the previous 10 years so UK based instructors can work with their own
clients in foreign countries. This survey asks all BASI members on their opinions and priorities for employment rights for working across Europe. It will assist the Board of Management in their negotiations at the European Commission on the MoU and the delegated act. The current pilot phase of the MoU has been signed by 11 nations and it would appear that compromise and negotiation will need to happen to ensure a legally robust final agreement which the other EU nations
are happy to agree to. If you have any questions or concerns please contact Scott Pleva directly for a confidential
discussion.
Survey Authors: Scott Pleva BASI L3 and Rob Rees BASI L2

RIGHT OF ESTABLISHMENT
To be entitled to work on a permanent basis in another EU country with the same employment rights as permanent instructors from that country, called Right of Establishment, the current pilot phase of the MoU specifies that instructors must have passed the Eurotest and the European Mountain Security (EMS).
On a scale of 1 to 5 do you agree or disagree
with the following statements:
· The Eurotest &EMS should determine the “common test" for right of establishment to permanently set up in another EU country with the same employment rights as permanent instructors in that country.
· The Eurotest should be completely eliminated.
· The Eurotest in its current format is fine and needs no changes at all.
· The Eurotest pass percentage level should be slightly increased so that the test is made slightly easier and pass rates proportionate with other top level examination modules.
· An Age Allowance should be implemented similar to the Gender Allowance to ensure compliance with anti-discrimination laws.
· The FIS point exemption level should be increased.
· SnowBoard instructors or other disciplines should not have to perform a Eurotest.
TEMPORARY WORKING RIGHTS
The European Commission has stated that the delegated act which details the rules regarding free movement of labour for snowsports instructors will be implemented in two phases. Firstly, the rules
for Right of Establishment will be negotiated and then after this Temporary and Occasional working rights. This part of the survey refers to Temporary working rights, which will typically include instructors who hold BASI Level 2 and Level 3 qualifications (Level 1 qualifications are designed for artificial environments such as indoor or dry ski slopes, so are not included in these negotiations). An agreement signed between the main Alpine nations in 2000 allowed for transient instructors to work for four weeks a year in a host nation (or regions within the host nation). Current regulations
across EU nations vary as to the definition of “temporary working” from two weeks to 100 days.

On a scale of 1 to 5 do you agree or disagree with the following statements:
· BASI instructors who do not hold the top level qualification should have the right to work across EU nations, within the remit of their licenses, but with more restrictions than those instructors who have right of establishment.
· Local ski schools should have the right to employ BASI instructors who do not hold the top level qualification on the same basis as they employ instructors from that nation.
· A local school should be limited in the number of lower level instructors it can employ based on the number of top
level instructors on staff.
· BASI instructors who do not hold the top level qualification should have the right to work on a temporary basis for ski schools who bring their own clients into foreign resorts
from their home nation, within the remit of their licences.
· Lower level instructors should continue to be allowed to bring their own clients into a foreign country and teach them on a
temporary basis within the remit of their licences.
· In order for instructors to work in foreign countries all the EU national snowsports associations must have each
license level rated by an independent body.
· BASI level 3 with the ISIA stamp should be allowed to teach unsupervised on piste and in the immediate vicinity of all marked and supervised pistes in foreign countries.
· BASI should only sign up to a final version of the “Memorandum of Understanding” if at the conclusion of the pilot phase of the MoU
there includes a clear timetable for agreeing the mechanism for provision of temporary and occasional services by snowsports
instructors within the EU.

ABOUT YOU
In order to help the BASI Board of Management better understand the opinions of the membership we would like a little information about you. Please note, you will not be identified by name or by your membership number in any report of this survey. This information
is only required to ensure that your membership status and level can be verified.
Your name:
Your BASI member number:
Your BASI qualifications:
Tick your highest level in each discipline or N/A if you have not ever been licensed in that discipline.
What level of BASI instructor do you aspire to become:
Tick the highest level in each discipline or N/A if you have interested in that discipline.
Are you currently a BASI Trainer : Yes/No
Add any comments that you feel will assist in the negotiations
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I think you are going about things in the right way but everyone knows that the results of a survey are biased by the wording of the questions. Therefore for a survey to be credible the questions need to be neutral otherwise a survey has no value then supporting a particular agenda. These questions do look biased to get the answers you are looking for.

For instance while I'm personally sympathetic with an ET age allowance there is no evidence that it is against age descrimation law so the reference to age legislation should be removed.

You could also phase the temporary workers rights question such as saying that should temporary workers have lower qualifications than full time workers as an option.

My understanding is that level 3 can only work off Piste on marked routes according to the basi 3 qualification not near marked pistes so this should be clarified.

I'm not an experts on survey questions. It is a very specialised skill. My suggestion is that for each topic there is a completely factual explanation of the current position and a range of different available and people can select the preferred option - the status quo being one of the options. I suspect this would give more valid questions. If the questions are not valid then the answers are not valid.

The survey should only be accessible by the basi members area, only one response should be allowed and it should be anonymous other than by level. This is the way my work surveys work which are commissioned using independent specialists.

Hope that helps.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@TTT, Thanks for your comments, I tried hard not to be biased but inclusive of all members views. Not sure that there is no evidence against age discrimination laws, I have had conversations with the UK government department responsible for mobility of working and their view is that the ET does contravene UK legislation and would not be signed into a delegated act as it stands.

You have made mention that L3 can only work on marked routes off piste before, can you site a reference to that as that is not my understanding. I worded the question as I did as other EU nations may take this survey up and this is the wording that my colleagues and I thought appropriate. If it is not within the remit of BASI L3 will adjust.

The short prelude to each section I hope clarifies the set of questions but I didn't want the survey overly wordy as people will give up. I am no expert in surveys just an ordinary member trying to help... The survey will be done through BASI channels, the technicalities of ensuring that members only give one response and that they state their correct level of membership hopefully can be done anonymously but if not then we would ask for name/ member number and top level in each discipline as the previous survey was very weighted by member level.
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@skimottaret, im not saying whether the ET is age discrimatory or not but that it biases the question when there is no clear evidence that it is illegal. That is your personal opinion. The basi legal advice is that it isn't. I don't see why it is otherwise every sport is also discriminatory and every test is also discriminatory as they get harder as you get older. Just have to accept our mortality I'm afraid. Best drop the discriminatory reference or at least caveat if deemed illegal otherwise the question is not credible.

The L3 MS assess you off-piste but if you look at the basi L3 description it only qualifies you on marked route. Assess and qualify are 2 different things. I do read carefully.

I'm not a survey expert either but I understand they do ask the same questions from the opposite direction to check answers eg should temporary workers be allowed lower requirements than permanent. Personally I don't have so much issue teaching on Piste but off should be L4 with local knowledge. It's the difference between hitting and not hitting rocks for instance in my experience and we all know the potential consequences.

I think the survey is to be applauded but unfortunately the questions do look biased at the moment to give the answers I perfectly understand that you are looking for. If it does not look unbiased then the answers will not be taken seriously by those who have a different agenda to you. Ideally the survey should be undertaken by independent specialists but difficult given the specialist nature of topic.
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Like I said I have correspondence from the UK government to reference but ultimately it will be down to BASI as to final wording. Will consider your concerns on wording for the age question and discuss with BASI, probably best to be conservative and remove reference to "illegal"

As far as remit on off piste with ISIA stamp. From what i can see on the BASI site "The course trains and assesses students to lead clients on off-piste descents within the confines of the ski area boundary. " http://www.basi.org.uk/content/alpine-level-3-mountain-safety-course.aspx

"A member who holds the Level 2 Instructor Qualification and the Level 3 Mountain Safety Qualification can lead off pisted descents within the confines of the ski area boundary consistent with the laws of the country they are operating in. This must not include uphill travel or the planned use of axe, crampons, rope or overnight stays. Travel is restricted to non-glacial terrain." http://www.basi.org.uk/content/alpine-level-3-mountain-safety-course.aspx

But also state "This includes techniques and tactics for bumps, steeper terrain, higher speeds and variable conditions within marked pistes and off piste on marked routes." http://www.basi.org.uk/content/alpine-ski-level-3-isia.aspx

I have to admit my understanding was always within the resort boundary with no uphill travel or ski off, will try to clarify off piste remit with BASI, thanks for pointing that out.

added complication is that in theory the EMS can be taken by an L2 with appropriate teaching hours. rolling eyes

I you have any specific ideas to make the survey less "biased" happy to consider any changes. If by biased you mean of concern to L2 and L3 as well as L4's working rights guilty as charged Wink
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@skimottaret, thanks. On L3 MS I'm just curious as I thought the same as you but it is ambiguous. I suspect the answer is country law specific so looking at your FB responses then Austria is ski routes only, french trainees? CH probably not allowed unless fully qualified? Italy also pretty strict so it seems limited in principle.

Will try to take a look at questions work/xmas/skiing permitted. Not easy as such complicated subject. I think also it is difficult as there is a world of difference within the levels between say what you are doing and a newly qualified gap student with no teaching experience and no interest in instructing.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Yeah it is a minefield... I keep thinking that what the continentals have come up with - ISIA stamp should be allowed to teach unsupervised on piste and in the immediate vicinity of all marked and supervised pistes in foreign countries.

works well with back country, out of site of piste etc the remit of L4.. Personally an L3 or L2 with MS is more than capable of taking groups between pistes or dipping into some fresh snow in low gradient terrain.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
To unbias the survey you could make a series of statements which are equally weighted pro and con your desired result e.g. throw in some things like "Only BASI 4s should teach off piste" or "The Eurotest is an essential safety test" and allow people to reply 1-5 from strongly disagree to strongly agree.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Dave of the Marmottes, considering that and those are two good ones. also thinking only L4's should be allowed to work as independents with all lower levels only allowed to work for established ski schools but what defines a ski school? Most Brit "schools" are just a bunch of self employed L4's...
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
IME I don't have a problem going off Piste with some experienced L2 and L3s. However, that is only in a resort that is known to them and where a full cert who knows the resort says it is safe to ski. Even reputable full certs always hire local guides to go off Piste in resorts they don't know. The reasons become obvious when fresh snow covers up the hazards you could see yesterday. Don't have a problem with L2s/L3s taking people off Piste per se but should be under supervision of full cert with local knowledge who in my experience has already checked conditions first. I know places that are obviously OK but my first responsibility is the safety of people I'm skiing with.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
A level 4 can have the off piste EMS with only 3 ,5 day courses and a min of 6 logged days. A level 2 could have years and hundreds of hours off piste experience, hundreds of days winter climbing/ walking. The bit of paper is only a standard as is ET but you need ET piste standard to be an ISTD. Go with recommendation.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Stephen59, appreciate that but in practice we know a L4 will generally have a lot more off piste experience and skills than an L2. It is ultimately whether a person has the appropriate skills that matters and that is the whole reason we have tests in skiing as whether as numerous other professions to test those skills. There are plenty of people with lots of experience in this world who don't have a clue what they are doing or have very limited ability.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Perhaps a survey question such as

There should be a "trained” status after passing the L3 Mountain Safety module then a “license” to teach off piste skiing granted only after completion of a detailed logbook.

Similar to the coaching discipline and how the logged tours is suppose to work for the EMS
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TTT wrote:
@Stephen59, appreciate that but in practice we know a L4 will generally have a lot more off piste experience and skills than an L2..


Not always the case.
Lets be honest - We all know the technical skiing ability for BASI L3/L4 is very high.
However the off piste requirements are much lower.

The L3 mountain safety course is nothing more than an "introduction" to off piste and touring.
Many candidates have never used skins / avalanche beacon or skied off piste before.
For sure the L4 EMS is a tougher exam but the pass rate is high.
It is clearly nowhere near as hard as a Euro Test or L4 Tech exam is to pass ?

In theory the BASI off piste course are meant to be stand alone modules for L2 upwards.
However local laws mean that they can't actually be used anywhere (outside of the UK).
France / Italy require full ISTD to go off piste with clients, the Swiss require instructors to have a patente <etc>
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Haggis_Trap, I'd pretty much fully agree with most of that. That is why I think off Piste instruction outside ski routes should be restricted to L4. There is a grey area on the side of Piste. For me though L3 ISIA is just a good skier like a recreational local although admittedly technically tidier and level 4 is above a local recreational skier.
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Off piste is about experience and local knowledge. The local l2 will be a better person to be out and about with rather than the L4. A L2 could be equally good skier as a L4 but just has not finished the courses because of a lack of money.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Agree local knowledge is important which is why agree not a good idea of temporary workers going off Piste because don't know terrain. Of course your example is entirely possible - there will be plenty of locals who've never instructed who ski to high standard but I've never met an L2 remotely as good as an L4 - I've no doubt there must be some but I've never seem an example out of the countless L2s I've met. L2s, L3s and L4s are completely different leagues in terms of qualification requirements.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Judging anyome just by the badges they have is ghey.
Several ex racers or olymic freestylers are "only" L2.

My one problem with the euro test is that it has effecitevly become the gate keeping qualification that allows you to teach off piste.
Because in europe you now need to be full cert in most alpine nations to ski off piste on non glacial terrain.
As we all know ski racers dont always make good, safe or knowledgable off piste skiers.
Compared to a UIAGM mountain guides level of experience the EMS for L4 is trivial.
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@Haggis_Trap, im still agreeing with you. I'd agree that the mountain guide qualification is better for those who want to guide and not instruct and is valid without doing ET. I have great respect for those with the mountain guide qualification and utmost respect for those with both. Again instructors I use make use of guides if they don't know the terrain. Of course mountain guides should be allowed to take people off Piste and I thought they could and do IME.
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@Haggis_Trap, im still agreeing with you. I'd agree that the mountain guide qualification is better for those who want to guide and not instruct and is valid without doing ET. I have great respect for those with the mountain guide qualification and utmost respect for those with both. Again instructors I use make use of guides if they don't know the terrain. Of course mountain guides should be allowed to take people off Piste and I thought they could and do IME.
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