@DB, wow. That is so sad, and presumably they did everything correct by hiring a guide. Really sad, makes one think. I very shaken that they were with a guide.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A German Ski Group (7 people) was caught in todays Avalanche. They had a guide does not specify where from.
2 died, 1 seriously injured.
The 4th person to enter triggered the slide. The victims were swept down 800Metres
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
sah wrote:
@Toadman,
Quote:
and you didn't really even need to know where to look...just open your eyes.
I don't want to sound like a kill-joy, but on those photos I see avy activity and a load of tracks leading in to nasty terrain trap. Add that to @stanton's, post just above, I'd say you really DO need to know where you're going, especially right now with fresh snow on a very thin base.
I was just thinking the same, lots of slides on the same aspect
The big av on Valluga North today however will be different, I'm pretty certain that anyone going into that terrain will have been very experienced, and either directly (or perhaps indirectly if with a guide) assessed and understood the risks, accidents happen and I suspect this is just a very tragic one......I dont think a bunch of folks with powder fever should be confused with what goes on on Valluga North, it takes a lot of time to get there, a lot a thinking time on the lift (or skins) and will have been thought through very detailed I suggest.
Anyone know how much Valluga Nord has been skied this season?
Very risky slope to ski given current conditions. I'm obviously not a guide, but big alpine faces are kinda russian roulette atm in my opinion. The dragon is more lightly dozing than sleeping...
Latest rumour circulating..... Final planning this summer . Construction starts summer 2017 ready for winter 2017/18
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Was in St Anton from 28 Dec - 11 Jan and don't think the Valluga II lift ran at all during the first week. We went up with a guide once during the second week and the entrance to the north face looked very wind blown and icy and no one was going down it. The guide took us around to the bridge couloir where snow conditions were much better.
clarky999 wrote:
Markymark29 wrote:
The big av on Valluga North today however will be different, I'm pretty certain that anyone going into that terrain will have been very experienced, and either directly (or perhaps indirectly if with a guide) assessed and understood the risks, accidents happen and I suspect this is just a very tragic one......I dont think a bunch of folks with powder fever should be confused with what goes on on Valluga North, it takes a lot of time to get there, a lot a thinking time on the lift (or skins) and will have been thought through very detailed I suggest.
Anyone know how much Valluga Nord has been skied this season?
Very risky slope to ski given current conditions. I'm obviously not a guide, but big alpine faces are kinda russian roulette atm in my opinion. The dragon is more lightly dozing than sleeping...
After all it is free
After all it is free
stanton wrote:
A German Ski Group (7 people) was caught in todays Avalanche. They had a guide does not specify where from.
2 died, 1 seriously injured.
The 4th person to enter triggered the slide. The victims were swept down 800Metres
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Condolences to all concerned. Out in March, safe to say I won't be attempting the north face.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Avalanche warning Level 3.
Folks. Just remember slides can happen anytime regardless
of warning level.
Level 3 claims more lives than any other level.
The commercialisation of the "off piste" business may have a lot to answer for....
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
Level 3 claims more lives than any other level
useful reminder
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Just heard about this in resort, thought may be just rumour but sadly not !
Sobering as I'm out with arlberg powder club tomorrow , not sure what sort of terrain to expect but given today's news guessing things will be kept v safe.
Condolences to all affected
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
The Ski Group from Germany were very experienced off piste skiers.
Just to put into context. 100's thousands come here to experience
the free terrain.
We have lost local teachers/guides with 30+ yrs experience over the years. They put their lives on the line everyday.
These are the first fatalities this season which is
not normal.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Just got back from a week in the arlberg. Absolutely love this area! Defo want yo go back!
Here is my edit, it shows the conditions at various parts of the resort.
If you like the vid please share, like and subscribe 😊
@stanton, well said, the Arlberg guides are as good as they get, great guys....safety of their clients is #1, unfortunately accidents happen.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
^^^This!
We were just now talking at home about the dread that locals must feel when news of an avalanche filters out. Will it have taken somebody they know? Each life is precious, but to lose a relative or friend is just that much harder.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
nolooney1997 wrote:
Just got back from a week in the arlberg. Absolutely love this area! Defo want yo go back!
Here is my edit, it shows the conditions at various parts of the resort.
If you like the vid please share, like and subscribe
Sorry, not a fan of the selfish stick perspective. It makes me seasick to watch it. Also, I got taken out by an idiot with one of these the other day who was clearly more interested in staring at his go pro than looking where he was going, so I'd rather people didn't bother and just concentrated on their skiing. I don't mean to be rude, but I think you'd do better filming action from a fixed position, use helmet cams sparingly (action rarely looks as impressive on a helmet cam as it is in real life) and there's no need for the selfie view IMHO.
If you want to see good videos of skiing in the Arlberg check out the stuff by Hanno Mackowitz, featuring Stefan Häusl e.g.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
ulmerhutte wrote:
^^^This!
We were just now talking at home about the dread that locals must feel when news of an avalanche filters out. Will it have taken somebody they know? Each life is precious, but to lose a relative or friend is just that much harder.
It must be a very sad day in the area today, fun and sport seem a bit pointless on days like this.
I'm hesitant to ask this question, so apologize if it comes out wrong. It seems from reading what a lot of people who know the area well, that the Avi area is tricky at best, and somewhat treacherous this year, more so after this storm. Why then would a guide go there with clients. We don't know the circumstances, but seems out of character for a guide to go there unless pressured to do so?
I'm with a guide and glad I am and Wil tell them to direct us where they think it's safest. I did ski the Valle Blanche one year and a guide perished just behind us (not my guide, with a group about an hour behind us) in a crevasse, so I understand there are always risks, but was this a much higher risk situation?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Redwine, There are well documented persistant weak layers deep in the snowpack; it's very hard to predict when and how they will release and how much force a release would need - so much so that an avalanche commission worker was killed recently while digging a pit to assess avalanche risk on a very regularly skied slope. It's just my opinion, but skiing steep slopes is a lot like russian roulette right now.
I dont think a bunch of folks with powder fever should be confused with what goes on on Valluga North, it takes a lot of time to get there, a lot a thinking time on the lift (or skins) and will have been thought through very detailed I suggest.
Huh The Valluga 2 takes about 5 minutes IIRC, and giving no opportunity to get a 'feel' for the snow on the way up, or to inspect it closely, it just spits out punters (and their guides) above a high ski route. And how many 'punters' (or guides) would skin up ?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
sah wrote:
nolooney1997 wrote:
Just got back from a week in the arlberg. Absolutely love this area! Defo want yo go back!
Here is my edit, it shows the conditions at various parts of the resort.
If you like the vid please share, like and subscribe
Sorry, not a fan of the selfish stick perspective. It makes me seasick to watch it. Also, I got taken out by an idiot with one of these the other day who was clearly more interested in staring at his go pro than looking where he was going, so I'd rather people didn't bother and just concentrated on their skiing. I don't mean to be rude, but I think you'd do better filming action from a fixed position, use helmet cams sparingly (action rarely looks as impressive on a helmet cam as it is in real life) and there's no need for the selfie view IMHO.
If you want to see good videos of skiing in the Arlberg check out the stuff by Hanno Mackowitz, featuring Stefan Häusl e.g.
I appreciate that, however I don't look at the cam when filming like this, just at the slopes and others as it is unsafe to do otherwise... That's fair enough, I posted to get people's opinions so I won't be offended dw 😀 the way I see it is that I am not a pro skier like the guys in those vids u sent. Therefore I will never capture footage that grips people's attention in the same way that these vids do. Therefore I have to try something else, going for lots mor camera tricks and self facing shots to give the shot some focus... As much as I would love to be able to ski/film others skiing extreme lines, I know I can't so make the best of what I've got. I will try what you and others have suggested tho by cutting down on selfie shots.
After all it is free
After all it is free
moffatross wrote:
Markymark29 wrote:
I dont think a bunch of folks with powder fever should be confused with what goes on on Valluga North, it takes a lot of time to get there, a lot a thinking time on the lift (or skins) and will have been thought through very detailed I suggest.
Huh The Valluga 2 takes about 5 minutes IIRC, and giving no opportunity to get a 'feel' for the snow on the way up, or to inspect it closely, it just spits out punters (and their guides) above a high ski route. And how many 'punters' (or guides) would skin up ?
V2 does not allow anyone on without a qualified guide (I think not even instructors, but could be wrong)*. Hence, non-guided groups hike up all the time (it's pretty steep, probably easier to boot pack than skin, especially if a track is already in). Even if you take the lift it's a very small one, takes 6 people max so usually there's a bit of waiting if your group is more than 6. I think Markymark29's point is that if you go up there you know what you are doing, it's not a place you just go by chance.
[* technically you can go up without a guide but only if you leave your skis behind - worth it on a clear day to see the view]
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@sah, so this Avi we are talking about is on the "classic" V2 route down to lech/zurs? There are always side routes I assume, but the guide only tram into the famous descent into lech is where the slide occurred?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
nolooney1997 wrote:
sah wrote:
nolooney1997 wrote:
Just got back from a week in the arlberg. Absolutely love this area! Defo want yo go back!
Here is my edit, it shows the conditions at various parts of the resort.
If you like the vid please share, like and subscribe
Sorry, not a fan of the selfish stick perspective. It makes me seasick to watch it. Also, I got taken out by an idiot with one of these the other day who was clearly more interested in staring at his go pro than looking where he was going, so I'd rather people didn't bother and just concentrated on their skiing. I don't mean to be rude, but I think you'd do better filming action from a fixed position, use helmet cams sparingly (action rarely looks as impressive on a helmet cam as it is in real life) and there's no need for the selfie view IMHO.
If you want to see good videos of skiing in the Arlberg check out the stuff by Hanno Mackowitz, featuring Stefan Häusl e.g.
(there are plenty more)
I appreciate that, however I don't look at the cam when filming like this, just at the slopes and others as it is unsafe to do otherwise... That's fair enough, I posted to get people's opinions so I won't be offended dw 😀 the way I see it is that I am not a pro skier like the guys in those vids u sent. Therefore I will never capture footage that grips people's attention in the same way that these vids do. Therefore I have to try something else, going for lots mor camera tricks and self facing shots to give the shot some focus... As much as I would love to be able to ski/film others skiing extreme lines, I know I can't so make the best of what I've got. I will try what you and others have suggested tho by cutting down on selfie shots.
Fair enough - and no, I wasn't suggesting you were being reckless, I just mentioned that incident to explain my prejudices
I am always amazed by the quality of video from go pros, and I think with one of those and a bit of planning you would get good shots of people skiing while you were stationary even on "tame" terrain. It takes time though, I imagine each of those videos I linked to took a season to film, on and off.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
sah wrote:
V2 does not allow anyone on without a qualified guide ...
I know that. My point is that although the 'punters' who are on the lift may be decent enough skiers or boarders to handle a 40 degree pitch above some cliffs, many of them may have little clue about risk assessment and they're most often led by guides who aren't getting first-hand signals themselves.
P.S. I agree with your point about bootpacking rather than skinning. I've been up as a tourist and recall looking down on a bootpacker in the gully just left of the car on the way up, I just assumed markymark was aware of skinning routes.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Redwine wrote:
@sah, so this Avi we are talking about is on the "classic" V2 route down to lech/zurs? There are always side routes I assume, but the guide only tram into the famous descent into lech is where the slide occurred?
Yes, they would have been heading that way going off the back of the Valuga. I don't think there are many side routes - there are two main descents "Nord" and "West", there may be other minor options but I'm not familiar with the routes I'm afraid.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
sah wrote:
nolooney1997 wrote:
sah wrote:
nolooney1997 wrote:
Just got back from a week in the arlberg. Absolutely love this area! Defo want yo go back!
Here is my edit, it shows the conditions at various parts of the resort.
If you like the vid please share, like and subscribe
Sorry, not a fan of the selfish stick perspective. It makes me seasick to watch it. Also, I got taken out by an idiot with one of these the other day who was clearly more interested in staring at his go pro than looking where he was going, so I'd rather people didn't bother and just concentrated on their skiing. I don't mean to be rude, but I think you'd do better filming action from a fixed position, use helmet cams sparingly (action rarely looks as impressive on a helmet cam as it is in real life) and there's no need for the selfie view IMHO.
If you want to see good videos of skiing in the Arlberg check out the stuff by Hanno Mackowitz, featuring Stefan Häusl e.g.
(there are plenty more)
I appreciate that, however I don't look at the cam when filming like this, just at the slopes and others as it is unsafe to do otherwise... That's fair enough, I posted to get people's opinions so I won't be offended dw 😀 the way I see it is that I am not a pro skier like the guys in those vids u sent. Therefore I will never capture footage that grips people's attention in the same way that these vids do. Therefore I have to try something else, going for lots mor camera tricks and self facing shots to give the shot some focus... As much as I would love to be able to ski/film others skiing extreme lines, I know I can't so make the best of what I've got. I will try what you and others have suggested tho by cutting down on selfie shots.
Fair enough - and no, I wasn't suggesting you were being reckless, I just mentioned that incident to explain my prejudices
I am always amazed by the quality of video from go pros, and I think with one of those and a bit of planning you would get good shots of people skiing while you were stationary even on "tame" terrain. It takes time though, I imagine each of those videos I linked to took a season to film, on and off.
No prob buddy, yeah I bet it took ages and lots of £££££££££
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Just a point/question about the avi. It was the 4th person in, so presumably the other 3 had not reached a safe spot? Or maybe they thought they had?
Surprising/interesting/lesson to be learned that the slope took 3 skiers before it went down.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
moffatross wrote:
sah wrote:
V2 does not allow anyone on without a qualified guide ...
they're most often led by guides who aren't getting first-hand signals themselves.
.
This is where I have an issue/concerns. Isn't it the point of the guide to assess risks, read avi reports, talk to other guides in the planning process?
@sah, eye opening. If I came to st Nton without doing that route, I would have been disappointed before this incident. I will have to read avi bulletins even with a guide, and since I don't back country in states, I have never dug a snow pit. Always caveat emptor.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Redwine wrote:
moffatross wrote:
sah wrote:
V2 does not allow anyone on without a qualified guide ...
they're most often led by guides who aren't getting first-hand signals themselves.
.
This is where I have an issue/concerns. Isn't it the point of the guide to assess risks, read avi reports, talk to other guides in the planning process?
Yes, but they're only human
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
This is where I have an issue/concerns. Isn't it the point of the guide to assess risks, read avi reports, talk to other guides in the planning process?
@Redwine, I'm sure the guides do everything they can to make the right commercial/safety judgement balance, and that they've a lot of experience piecing together bits of information. What I was questioning was the original statement that there's time and opportunity on the ('long' ) journey to Valluga summit for guides and customers to make an assessment, when in fact for most guides, it's just another lift ride, and that many of their customers wouldn't really know how to assess risks for themselves.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@moffatross, Just for clarification - I'm aware of the potential to skin or bootpack the way up if preferred (and you're of a masochistic tendency), and also concur that the lift is only 5 minutes or so, and that it "spits" you and the guide out, and that you then have a sketchy jump into the 40 degree slope, also that it sits above cliffs and that its a risky environment. I can not obviously comment on individual guides' knowledge of snow conditions, however would comment that there is a great deal of interaction between guides and those guys who are doing it regularly are as well placed as anyone to make a risk assessment of whether its "safe" to go in, or otherwise. I have every confidence that if our guide got there and felt it was unsafe he would be under no pressure to do it, it's his/ her life as well as his clients, and they are very professional people. The guide we use has frequently got to less exposed drop-ins and refused to take us in, and also reprimanded me (and others) for following too closely, plus also last season told us he wouldnt take us up V2 after lunch, it was not safe.
Regards the thinking time I mentioned above, I was not talking about the 5 minute 6 person V2 cablecar journey, for me I was talking about the whole preparation - lunch discussion sat in Galzig self-serve before, the queueing up getting a feel for the way the people are in the zone and pretty serious rather than usual banter, the gallery viewpoint at the top and the views, realisation of exposure levels and the need for "getting those first few turns right", checking the gear before entry and the drop-in which is pretty difficult in itself. Personally unable to assess the snow before we entered, you are reliant totally on the guide. That's why you pay these guys, they are totally professional and you've got to trust the guide..............I wouldnt do it with someone I dont know, we'd ski'd togather for years and I knew he knew my limits and had assessed the snow as best he could. Beyond that it's clearly a calculated risk.
All that said I'm in no great rush to do it again, I'd heard stories about big slides before from locals I know, but the events yesterday make it seem very real.
This is where I have an issue/concerns. Isn't it the point of the guide to assess risks, read avi reports, talk to other guides in the planning process?
@sah, eye opening. If I came to st Nton without doing that route, I would have been disappointed before this incident. I will have to read avi bulletins even with a guide, and since I don't back country in states, I have never dug a snow pit. Always caveat emptor.
Yes, of course that's their job and that's what they do. Constantly. We don't know how this accident happened so let's not jump to any conclusions here, and bear in mind people reading this may know those involved.
I would advise not making a "tick list" for a trip to the Arlberg... this is one of the human factors in avalanche awareness. Asses the situation and go where the snow is good (and safe), don't set your sights on something that may not be feasible. Anyway, the best runs are the ones you least expect, the "big lines" are often a let down because they get tracked out, or there's a queue, or they just don't live up to expectations. My favorite memory of skiing in the Arlberg was getting one last lap on Bachseit with a good friend while everyone else was in the bar already. Empty slopes, a bit tracked but deep and soft and light beginning to fade. If you don't know it it's not a big line, most wouldn't even say it was "proper" off piste but there you go, that's what skiing is about for me. By all means ski Valuga if it's in good condition, and if it's not don't be disappointed, there's nothing you can do about it.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Looks as if there will be some snow on the Western Flanks this weekend
@Markymark29, thanks for that, I get what you meant now.
@Redwine, anyone using the services of a guide knows that the odds will be stacked massively in their favour (see Markymark29's point about the guide's life being at risk too), but there's still dice rolling going on, and it would be naive to expect skiing to be risk free.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@moffatross, @sah, agreed with all that has been said. There are always risk in this sport. We all just need to understand them.
@stanton, does it look like it's more than the original forecast? It always seems to happen on weekends, not that there is anything wrong with that.
After all it is free
After all it is free
stanton wrote:
Looks as if there will be some snow on the Western Flanks this weekend
Aber ich farhe ab, am Samstag!
The Arlberg can use a refresh for sure.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
The Valluga 2 takes about 5 minutes IIRC, and giving no opportunity to get a 'feel' for the snow on the way up, or to inspect it closely, it just spits out punters (and their guides) above a high ski route. And how many 'punters' (or guides) would skin up ?
