 Poster: A snowHead
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Seems to me that people are acknowledging there is a specific difference between men and women on the slopes, or else why prefer a mixed group to a women-only one, and have the 'challenge' of skiing better to keep up the gung-ho boys?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There is a big overlap between female skiers and male skiers (I'm just talking recreational here, not athletes). Much bigger, I'd say, than the overlap between male and female recreational cyclists. I said at the outset that I would neither seek, nor seek to avoid, a female group - I'd look for a small group of skiers of similar ability to myself, wanting to do similar stuff. I am absolutely not interested in "challenging myself to keep up with" anybody - I feel that's a recipe for injury - and in any case, that's normally irrelevant in a lesson, where speed is generally not the point. In a lesson I like to have somebody better than I am (because their standard normally seems attainable whereas an instructor is outtasight) and wouldn't want to be much the weakest in a group, because that would be awkward, but other than that I'm genuinely not bothered where I am in the pecking order.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, ditto, if a group was all female and of a similar ability I would certainly join in and have a great time, but I would not actively seek out an all female group.
miranda, there must be a specific difference or else why propose an all woman group. For a timid lady who struggles in any group activity and maybe isn't used to working in mixed groups, maybe at work, an all female group may work well for them. It's just something that wouldn't bother me (and I do like a challenge  )
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Megamum, but why do you see it as a "challenge" to ski in a group which includes men? I don't, though I would see it as a "challenge" to ski with a group of skiers better than I am. If they were a little bit better (and patient) then fine. If they were a lot better I'd prefer to ski on my own.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, yes, I agree with you, I think there is a big overlap with recreational skiers, which is why it wouldn't bother me to be in a mixed or single gender group. Personally, I wouldn't expect to be the fastest, the most 'gung-ho', or to ski less well just because I was in a lesson group with other female skiers, and (apart from being absolutely rubbish last season when I was getting over injury) I'm not a particularly nervous or slow skier. To be honest, if I really needed spurring on by someone who skis hard and fast on difficult terrain, I could just go skiing with the 10 year old girl from across the road.
In terms of role models, I do like the fact that my instructor does it all and then some when it comes to year-round mountain sports, despite having a young child (which - no matter how 'equal' were are these days - does still require women to take time out), and having had some fairly nasty injuries. We are roughly the same size and age (though our body fat/muscle composition might vary *slightly*  ) and when she's telling me about the various things she's doing, I find it helpful/inspiring when thinking about realistic targets for myself (which are quite some way down from what she's doing obviously). She's not set herself up in any way to be a role model of course and would laugh if she read this - I've just decided to adopt her as one 
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pam w, I'm not the only one who has said that. I think men on the whole are more 'gung-ho' and their enthusiasm is contagious. I also work in a male dominated industry, and have always seen being as good as the men as something to be desired if I am going to get on. That said I think a female role-model in a male dominated area is something to be desired, and I would be all for the support of female ski instructors, I'm sure they must be fewer in number than male instructors - I must admit I've never been taught by a lady instructor.
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Just to be clear, I don't think women working in male-dominated areas should be expected to act as role models for girls or other women, unless being a role model is part of the general job description.
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I'd be up for it.... or not, as the case may be.
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| Quote: |
I also work in a male dominated industry, and have always seen being as good as the men as something to be desired if I am going to get on.
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In my working experience (and the senior civil service was fairly male dominated) "being as good as the men" would never have made any sense and would certainly not have occurred to me as a goal. I worked with some men who were extremely good - and some men who were not. I was "as good" as some of them and "far better" than some and "never likely to be in the same category as" others. So I got promoted more than some, the same as others and nowhere near as rapidly as a few (one of whom ended up as head of the Diplomatic Service - rather out of my league ).
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miranda,
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I don't think women working in male-dominated areas should be expected to act as role models for girls or other women
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That was my problem. And I'm just not 'role model' - or any other sort of model - material.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think there is a market for women-only courses, but it's fairly small. From my point of view it would be great if there were only two types of learners, male and female, but I've found that there are many more types of learner than that so I try to teach everyone as individuals. Maybe more complicated than gender-specific training, but perhaps a better approach?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar,
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I try to teach everyone as individuals. Maybe more complicated than gender-specific training, but perhaps a better approach?
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MUCH!
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I ski with guys 99% of the time so I would love to ski with a group of women who were as keen on skiing as me. I have done a few womens mtb camps and I loved them, at the time I biked with guys most of the time and hadn't met any other women who were as keen on biking as I was and who loved geeking out about all the equipment as well.
There was a whole thread on here about why women ski off piste less often than men and I do think this is mainly true for UK holiday skiers, which is what most people on this forum are. Doing a women's only course means you are going to meet more skilled women's skiers, again through the biking courses I saw girls doing massive jumps and drops that I had only seen (some) guys do before. I'm not sure why so many of the women on this course see being inspired by other women as weird, I found it pretty inspiring to see a 16 year old girl get massive air over big jumps. I'm not really sure why there would be argument about the usefulness of female role models either, just because you don't like same sex role models doesn't mean they are invalid. How many little boys do you see with posters of women on their bedroom walls who they admire for some reason other than their physical beauty? When they are really young they tend to have pictures of men they admire and want to be like, footballers, extreme sports stars, it would be nice if there were a greater number of cool female role models for little girls to look up to for some reason other than how pretty they are.
Next season I would like to do some race training, some touring and learn some map reading skills, if there was a women's only group near enough me that was doing any of this, and I had the cash I would go. This group is focusing on the southern hemisphere now but they have run events in Europe which looked good
http://missionwow.org/events/snow/
The replies to this thread are really strange, not really sure why some of you feel such animosity to this idea and are making disparaging comments about "wimmins stuff". Just because you are ok doesn't mean that no one else would like some help or advice.
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You know it makes sense.
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lynseyf, I'm interested in why you think doing a women's only course would mean you get to ski with more skilled female skiers?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, I can only speak to the mtb courses I have done but the people who do intensive courses tend to be really keen and a bit more skilled than average. I used to go biking at the same place every week with a group of guys and obviously saw some women out on their bikes. Going to a female only course at the same there were 50 girls who were all interested enough to book onto a weekends training. Obviously among this group there is a massive difference in levels and learning styles, the same as among any group but the best girls were really good and I found that inspiring and I hadn't just met them by chance even though we were probably riding at the same place. The first time I did DH mtbing I went with a female only group, my male friends had gone before and loved it but I thought it would be too tough for me but seeing other women try it really encouraged me to go.
I would assume that if you got a group of 50 women skiers together that are interested enough to go on a week long or weekend course then they are probably going to be a bit above the average holiday skier level purely by putting a bit more effort into their learning. I wouldn't book on a beginners course, or a cautious skiers course although I can see there are places for them. I would probably try a women's park session, racing or touring. I spend most of my skiing time with guys who will push me to try new things, I already have male ski friends so it would be nice to meet more women.
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Poster: A snowHead
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lynseyf,
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just because you don't like same sex role models doesn't mean they are invalid
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I don't think anybody's said they are invalid. I certainly don't think they're invalid.
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Just because you are ok doesn't mean that no one else would like some help or advice
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Agreed, but I think it's good to try and combat injustice and prejudice wherever it is, and not just where it has become both strident and formulaic. A personal example? My efforts to get the young men - who were in a minority, as you might imagine - appropriately and respectfully treated on an eating disorders unit. And in fact generally keeping an eye out for harassment of male patients on mental health wards which, in my experience, is not at all uncommon.
But I did promise myself not to get into an argument about women's lib, which happens to have been invented around the time I was trying to forge a career in an almost exclusively male environment. I'm out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I found it pretty inspiring to see a 16 year old girl get massive air over big jumps
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I like watching the kids in the local skate/bike/scooter park - almost all boys, sadly. They are often very brave, and I admire their tenacity and growing skill. You do occasionally see a girl in there - and then I'm thrilled. My just 4 year old grand-daughter is becoming quite a skilled little cyclist (I contributed to the expensive Isla bike she got from everybody for Christmas) and I'm hoping to see her in there one day.
lynseyf, I don't think anybody on this thread has suggested that the idea of female role models is "weird" nor rubbished the idea of groups specifically for women.
When I did two bike maintenance classes (which were pretty equally gender balanced) it was good to see the guys freely admit they were clueless about bike mechanics - in fact, I knew more than one of them! If they had been "know it alls", or even "macho" blokes who wouldn't admit they were clueless they wouldn't have paid to do a beginners bike maintenance course and I'd expect anyone who paid to be taught how to ski better to recognise the value of listening to the instructor and work on the skills being presented - at whatever level. Given that I don't think women are at a disadvantage in learning to ski (as they no doubt are in some spheres of activity) I don't see a huge demand for female courses. But that doesn't mean I reject any suggestion of special provision.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Pedantica wrote: |
Agreed, but I think it's good to try and combat injustice and prejudice wherever it is, and not just where it has become both strident and formulaic. A personal example? My efforts to get the young men - who were in a minority, as you might imagine - appropriately and respectfully treated on an eating disorders unit. And in fact generally keeping an eye out for harassment of male patients on mental health wards which, in my experience, is not at all uncommon.
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Yes I would imagine it must be very hard for young men with eating disorders, media coverage of it is entirely dominated by storied of women which must make it much harder for men with eating disorders to seek help. Mental health disorders can be very isolating anyway and I would imagine this would only be worse if you feel you shouldn't be suffering in the first place, if you are the "wrong" gender.
It feels a bit crass comparing serious mental health problems to sports but surely this is just backing up my point that young girls might like to see more female sports stars and some women might find skiing with skilled female skiers encouraging?
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To be honest, I thought holidayloverxx thought gender-specific role models were weird when she said she didn't 'get' them and other people didn't get the 'wimmins shizzle' but maybe that's not what was meant.
I'll admit I find the need to have 'boys/lads/men' in the group for their gung-ho enthusiasm a bit weird, but maybe I've just been lucky in not skiing with wimpy, lacklustre women all the time 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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maybe I've just been lucky in not skiing with wimpy, lacklustre women all the time
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and I've been equally fortunate in mostly avoiding gung-ho "lads" with something to prove. I don't mind "lads" of 17 - you expect them to behave like idiots - but the groups of older "lads" you see around, hefty, out of control and half cut, are the pits. The men I've skied with (in lessons and outside) haven't been like that at all - and the most skilled are often the least show-off.
Maybe holidayloverxx was a bit scathing, but on the whole I think this is a thoughtful discussion.
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| rob@rar, I can only speak to the mtb courses I have done but the people who do intensive courses tend to be really keen and a bit more skilled than average. |
Obviously I don't have much experience of women only courses, but the ones that I have a little familiarity with tend to attract a high proportion of clients on the cautious end of the skiing spectrum. No idea if this is typical, and as I said, I have limited experience. As for skill level, I'd hope that ski schools are always grouping skiers by ability so you should be skiing with people who can all benefit from the instruction that is being offered and are challenged appropriately.
Hope that doesn't come across as being anti women-only courses. I think it's great that there is a wide range of ski instruction options you can chose from.
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| pam w wrote: |
Maybe holidayloverxx was a bit scathing, but on the whole I think this is a thoughtful discussion. |
Yes, I agree, and I wasn't having a dig at holidayloverxx, Nadenoodlee, Pedantica et al - they were just being honest after all.
I am seriously considering doing a camp/clinic next year as I never get to do them during the season for obvious reasons, so I was thinking of one late November/early December - like you, I will happily consider a women's group if a suitable one happened to be available at the right time/location/price.
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rob@rar, not at all and I think I misunderstood your question, I would expect to find a higher number of skilled women on a women only course purely due to numbers. If we are assuming an off piste course maybe has 30% women on every course then those women are spread across every day the course is running. A women's only course is serving to concentrate those women into the one weekend.
I haven't done any women specific ski courses, no real idea why or conscious choice to do them or not but that may be as you say as they tend to be marketed towards more cautious skiers. The women's bike courses I did I was very much in the middle of skills wise and there was loads of (annoyingly) talented 16 year olds as well as women who had been biking for ages and were really skilled, I know one of them went on to compete at Crankworx at Whistler and one of the girls did a backflip on a big kicker at the coaching day so obviously way above my level which was cool. I think if I saw ski events marketed and run in a similar vein to the bike events I have gone to then I would do them.
Coachwise I have only had male ski instructors, some of whom have been excellent. On bikes I have had male and female coaches, the best by far was female but so was the worse so I don't think I am automatically going to learn better from a women.
I'm not really sure about the keeping up with people comments, I don't feel compelled to chase people who are a lot faster than me as it is too unattainable but someone who is just a bit faster than me can push me to go that bit faster or harder, I would guess at the skiing level I am at that person could either be male or female.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I didn't mean to be scathing or suggest that gender specific role models are weird. ..I just don't personally look up to women specifically. To me a role model exudes certain characteristics and that could be a man or a woman.
BTW I'm no woman's libber either!
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| rob@rar, not at all and I think I misunderstood your question, I would expect to find a higher number of skilled women on a women only course purely due to numbers. |
Apologies, I misread your post and thought you meant more highly skilled women skiers rather than lots of women skiers of all abilities, including those who are highly skilled.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| someone who is just a bit faster than me can push me to go that bit faster or harder, I would guess at the skiing level I am at that person could either be male or female. |
+1
and I suspect that's true for a good number of other snowHeads too.
holidayloverxx I don't specifically aspire to be like women only either, but I do think gender can be a factor sometimes in identifying with someone, and aspiring to be like them over someone else.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Gender specific role models can be very important in some activities. Dancesport for one. Dancing for young children is most frequently taught by woman, yet the execution of moves needs to be very different between the sexes, and boys benefit hugely from having a male teacher to immitate. That teacher can be a wonderful source of inspiration too.
If adults want to learn to dance competitively, they too can benefit from lessons with a great dancer of their own sex.
I have no idea weather men and women ski competitors need different skills from each other?
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I thought these kind of groups / coaching already existed - 'ladies morning' at Hemel for one. Maybe it's more like a ski coaching equivalent of 'girls night out'?
It doesn't necessarily mean you don't want to ski in mixed groups at other times, or even most of the time - it's just that we all get different things from different groups at different times.
I imagine these courses would be aimed at, or would at least be more popular with, skiers of lower ability than those who seem to post here? I think one example the OP mentioned was older women getting back in to the sport.
Personally I don't think it's such a bad idea.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well I'm now seriously considering this - can't see the harm in trying something out. I see from the link Pam posted that inspired to ski do an early season off piste course in Tignes - it's very close to the start of our own season but my husband is going off on a road cycling tour of Mont Blanc with a couple of the local blokes right before the start of our summer season (and there really would be no point in me trying to tag along with that - painful for everyone concerned!) so I have a strong argument if I decide to disappear for a few days in December… I have no idea about what else is out there in terms of prices/course content etc (for mixed groups too), so need to do some research on everything that's available first.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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miranda, I did a mixed Inspired to Ski course a few years ago and we had a discussion about the women's only course. One of the instructors said the level was quite high, if they run all the levels on the ItS website then level 6 is a pretty high level group, or it was the last time I was there.
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Poster: A snowHead
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lynseyf, ah! I had been too quick in scanning the ItS site - I had it in my head before clicking the link that all their courses were for women, but in fact the women's thing is a 3 day course in January. I can't see any dates for the Warren Smith course, and the snoworks one this year was in January so I'm assuming it will be the same again… so not sure it's going to work out for me this time unless valais2 does get something off the ground for the very early season.
If he does, I hope it's pitched by providing a positive rationale for women's ski groups that doesn't focus on women being nervous, with quotes from 'lady skiers' needing to find/build confidence. I think the attraction for me in giving a women's group a go is - as well as meeting some more female skiers - I would be interested to see how I get on in a group of people with a similar strength/fitness level, where it is clearly your technique that advances/hinders. I don't much care that bigger, stronger men can get down the hill faster than me, as I don't see it being relevant to my skiing at all, but I would prefer not to have to focus on being on catch up with everyone else because of that reason alone (if I'm the slowest because I'm the weakest technically, then ok fine, I'm there to improve my technique). I'd like to do an early improver off piste course or all terrain course with people of a roughly similar skill/strength/fitness level who are keen to push their skiing on a level, but I don't want to join a group specifically created for nervous women, with female-focused 'pep talks'.
So far, I've not been overly inspired by what I've read from those already providing women's courses - not enough for me to opt for them over a mixed group with more suitable times/prices/locations anyway... but I'm still open to being convinced...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I hope I haven't given the impression that I spend my time skiing with aggressively gung-ho youngsters with more strength than technique, which would be an insult to all my male ski companions. They do mostly ski better than I do, but that's because their technique is better, and they are also stronger and fitter a) because they're younger (let's face it, most people I ski with are going to be younger than me ) and b) because they work on their fitness more assiduously than I do (er, some of them do, anyway... ) Like many on here, I love skiing with people who are better than me, since it pushes me out of my comfort zone, it matters not whether they're male or female. But, all these considerations aside, much as I adore the sorority of the Ladies Wot Lunch, not just to lunch with, but also to ski with, I do enjoy male company. And since, for me, a ski week is a holiday even if I'm on a course, I'd prefer to be in mixed company.
Oh, and another reason I like skiing with strong chaps is that they can (and do) pick me up out of snowdrifts.  And, of course, there are several chaps who are also 'Ladies' wot Lunch.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pedantica, I've never seen you ski but have the impression that you've been doing it for quite a while and have done quite a few courses, so I assumed that you're a pretty good skier (by recreational standards), and that some of your 'gung-ho' male skiing friends would be technically better than you and some would not be.
| Pedantica wrote: |
much as I adore the sorority of the Ladies Wot Lunch, not just to lunch with, but also to ski with, I do enjoy male company. And since, for me, a ski week is a holiday even if I'm on a course, I'd prefer to be in mixed company.
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Yes, maybe that's another reason that I'm open to the idea of an all-female ski group - I so rarely socialise in exclusively female company… I even had men at my 'hen do'… I assume we would be allowed to talk to men outside of the ski class valais2 
Do keep me posted if you get something set up valais2
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miranda,
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you've been doing it for quite a while and have done quite a few courses, so I assumed that you're a pretty good skier
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Massive non sequitur! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pedantica, well you've said you've been classed as a solid level 8 on the IO scale by the pros and that you know you're getting better with more slope time and lessons… so I still think you must be a pretty good skier.
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miranda, I wouldn't put it any stronger than 'not too shabby, but not as good - or as fast - as I should be, given the length of time I've been doing it. And almost useless off-piste!'
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I think this whole issue is a strange one. IMO there shouldn't be a need for women only courses. To suggest that they are necessary/welcome assumes there is something special about a women's only group that isn't shared in a mixed sex group, i.e. that there is something special about women when it comes to skiing. OK, there are conversations that occur in all women groups which might not occur in a male/female groups, but I can think of very little other differences unless you count the difference in attitudes when one sex interacts (in a social situation) with the other. I certainly wouldn't be concerned if I had booked to go on a course and found myself in an all woman group, but it nice to share the company of the chaps. IIRC I think I was the only lady in my EoSB appt. last year and it certainly wasn't a problem any more than it would have been if I had been in an all female group. I suppose if an all ladies course was offering exactly what I wanted in terms of course content I'd go, but I'd be going for the course content and not the fact that it was necessarily a women's only course. On the other hand if a course was offered on SH's full of friends that I don't see very often the fact that it was women only would not put me off applying to go,
NB: [query]I know there are some limited occupations where it can be specified that women only are required, but is it legal to offer a course where only one sex can apply to attend?[/query]
Pedantica, FWIW you could count on me for a helping hand out of a snowdrift if there were no chaps around!!
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| Megamum wrote: |
| IMO there shouldn't be a need for women only courses. To suggest that they are necessary/welcome assumes there is something special about a women's only group that isn't shared in a mixed sex group, i.e. that there is something special about women when it comes to skiing. |
Megamum, you're contradicting your earlier post, aren't you?
Maybe I want to go on an all-female course because I don't want that "contagious" gung-ho attitude of the lads - who you so enjoy trying to keep up with - distracting me whilst I'm trying to keep up with the advanced female skiers (who you think on the whole have less such enthusiasm when it comes to skiing).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, you're contradicting your earlier post, aren't you?
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Not at all, I'm trying to say that I don't think there is anything particularly special about women's only skiing and that to run a specific course implies that there is. Also, that I think the attitude of the chaps adds to the experience.
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Megamum, I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that they are necessary. However, based on my knowledge of other sports where women only groups/courses can be quite popular... I'm of the opinion that given the offer was the right offer (product, price, place, promotion and packaging) that a women's only ski course would have some take up.
Whether it's wrong or right that a female only course exists or could exist doesn't really matter, so long as there is some demand (clearly more market research required).
I understand it's a different proposition than with sports such as cycling as skiing tends to be a holiday sport. But if it could be packaged for ladies with some disposable income as Pam suggested (offer lessons or group skiing for partners), or packaged so that ladies can attend the course while the rest of the family do their own thing....
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FAQ
