 Poster: A snowHead
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andyrew, The first question but the brands in that link are all German, Austrian or Swiss, which I assume we are counting as German, so that link shows variability from manufacturers from the same countries so that link just seems to show different skis from different manufacturers have different mounting points which is what I think those of us who are dubious about Raceplate's claims were suggesting.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name, lynseyf, fair enough, I've had enough of a pointless argument.
I've summarised my understanding of the theories for you and expressed my opinion. To me it makes sense and I'm satisfied that there's plenty of empirical (and some scientific) evidence to back it up.
I get the impression neither of you have actually bothered to read the multitude of threads on the subject on Epicski and in other places (some of which have been referenced for you by andyrew but there are many more), you're arguing against it from a baseless position.
Your best counter-argument so far is, "intuitively it feels wrong" while at the same time saying that the theory cannot possibly be right because it hasn't been scientifically proved! Do you not see the hypocrisy in that? Where's the scientific evidence for your intuition?
So carry on, don't believe it - it makes no odds to me. Years of reading similar comments/theories on the effects of moving binding position from people who own ski shops and are forever testing skis has made me quite happy that the theory's correct.
If you don't agree, I suggest you do some background reading and research, formulate a proper counter argument (or hypothesis if you want to play semantics) and test it to a meaningful standard deviation.
The ski industry looks forward to your ground-breaking work.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| lynseyf wrote: |
| andyrew, The first question but the brands in that link are all German, Austrian or Swiss, which I assume we are counting as German, so that link shows variability from manufacturers from the same countries so that link just seems to show different skis from different manufacturers have different mounting points which is what I think those of us who are dubious about Raceplate's claims were suggesting. |
According to the OP, the thread's not about that but you might like to re-read my post of yesterday at 15:10.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I always thought that the debates about binding position were more about soft snow performance - shifting the mount point back helps avoid tip dive but makes the ski feel longer / less wieldly?
Surely if you are centred (I mean in your boots not along the ski) then binding mount position has very little impact on carving?
I suspect you can get used to either and what you like depends on what you have been skiing on recently. A bit like ramp angle where it feels very odd when you change from a steep ramp to a flat mount but, actually, it just takes a bit of time to find your centre again.
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Re the photos ^^^ That's pretty much exactly how my Rossi vs Volkl skis lined up back in 2005. I'd say the net difference is that the Rossi binding is about 2cms further forward than the Atomic which based on the data produced by Lou and the Campbell Balancer tests is more than enough to make a significant difference to how the skis ski.
As I said earlier, the only thing I don't know is if it's still a current trend. Would be interesting to line up a current 170cm Rossi Pursuit or a 168cm Experience 83 next to the Atomics and see how they compare.
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| jedster wrote: |
I always thought that the debates about binding position were more about soft snow performance - shifting the mount point back helps avoid tip dive but makes the ski feel longer / less wieldly?
Surely if you are centred (I mean in your boots not along the ski) then binding mount position has very little impact on carving?
I suspect you can get used to either and what you like depends on what you have been skiing on recently. A bit like ramp angle where it feels very odd when you change from a steep ramp to a flat mount but, actually, it just takes a bit of time to find your centre again. |
If the former is true, then it is promoting smearing and skidding. That also means that conversely, moving the binding forward promotes tip dive, or turn initiation and therefore carving.
The data that the OP doesn't like suggests elite quality skiers are largely unaffected by moving the mount but lower level skiers are. Same as ramp angle - if you're good, you can adjust, but if you're not (and you don't know anything about the subject which most punters don't) you don't ski well but can't work out why.
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Raceplate, I just lined up a Rossi Pursuit 16ti next to 10yr old old Atomic gs9 of similar length and find the Rossi is well forward, even with the Atomic binding in its most fwd position. The Pursuit is by far the most fwd mounted skis I've owned. I'm sure my Rossi FIS SL 155s aren't so far fwd, but they're out in the car so missed the lineup.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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balernoStu, thanks, that's good feedback. If you've got FIS slalom skis I presume you're a pretty technical skier. Do you find the Pursuits particularly easy to initiate the turn and carve?
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Raceplate, i've now read all the citations and they mostly cite each other or are multiple links to the same paper. None of the research is good, (I said this before), none of the data is adequate to draw a conclusion.
However, my quiver contains several pairs of FIS (admittedly in some cases not current) WC compliant SL, GS, and SG skis. Does that mean I have a better opinion than you thought I have?
As it appears that you are impressed by balernoStus' rides...? (Mine are 165 btw)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 7-03-14 1:22; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Oh and I often ski steep, deep powder on said GS and SG skis... They're lovely!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It has also just occurred to my that I think I get a better faster edge in on my 191cm very full bore Rossi GS than my 203cm Völkl SG so I think you may have a point...
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Raceplate, as meh, suggests I don't needa. Counter argument. So far, all we have is anecdote on what manufacturers do and why coupled with your pet theory.
All I've said is that in 44 years of skiing quite a lot I'd never run across the Franco-German concept and find your argument unconvincing. The "papers" (articles) have little scientific weight and in any case at least one seems to be recording nothing but noise. I do like Lou's site, it's very interesting.
For what it's worth my skis are a mix of Rossignol, Volkl and a solitary, worn out (  ) pair of Nordicas.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry, butting in here, but this discussion has been fascinating to read.
The next time some uni students pop on here with another survey, can we coerce a group into doing a proper study with snowheads help?! Unlikely I know, but I'd love to see it.
The last time I had bindings mounted on skis (November, Marker Squires onto my Down 6's) I had them done at Sole BootLab. There was a good 20mins+ discussion with me about my skiing ability and style, study of the skis, Down's recommended mounting points, the guys measuring the skis, checking centre of balance etc, before agreeing a mounting point that would likely suit me. I realise this isn't something the average punter in a shop would get, which is a shame.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Not definitive by any means but here's a rather good manufacturers description where they refer to the traditional mounting centre being "chord centre" which would be the narrowest point if the ski... Wouldn't it  ? http://www.xcosports.com/documents/G3_Mounting%20Instructions_Ski_09.pdf
My statement about my GS vs SG above, was of course, mildly ironic... The differences in performance are what you would expect...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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meh,
| Quote: |
| On a more philosophical note, you do realise that no one needs a counter-argument to think that you're wrong or that you haven't offered good enough evidence to support your statements right? |
I do. But it's a supposed to be a discussion/debate. Debates are supposed to have two alternative points of view. If Party B says Party A's theory is incorrect but doesn't offer an alternative solution, it rather weakens their assertion and it's not much of a debate, is it?
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Just to clarify - I didn't/don't think my posts are conclusive and comparing two ski manufacturers 10 years apart is less than ideal. Maybe someone works in a ski shop and can compare the mounting point on French and German skis of the same era.
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From that discussion:
| skimottaret wrote: |
fred,
The manufacturer setting is almost always further back on the ski making them skid more. Studies have shown more advanced skiers generally prefer a more forward mounting point to the Manufacturers settings. |
And this from 5 years ago! Not exactly my pet theory is it? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
| Just to clarify - I didn't/don't think my posts are conclusive and comparing two ski manufacturers 10 years apart is less than ideal. |
You don't say. 
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Just to clarify - I didn't/don't think my posts are conclusive and comparing two ski manufacturers 10 years apart is less than ideal. |
You don't say. |
What's with the rolleyes. You can criticise, bully and put down other people over the internet - you want to try it with me than stand in front of me and do it or STFU. Your call.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
| Just to clarify - I didn't/don't think my posts are conclusive and comparing two ski manufacturers 10 years apart is less than ideal. Maybe someone works in a ski shop and can compare the mounting point on French and German skis of the same era. |
Same here, but my skis being 10yrs apart in opposite manufacturers possibly adds some reference. Haven't posted my equivalent pics, but your white tiles look a lot nicer than my lino!
Raceplate, yeah the Pursuits carve beautifully without much effort. Personally I feel the fwd mount contributes somewhat to that ease.
under a new name, I mention the FIS (ladies) skis as they may be less influenced by mass market appeal.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 7-03-14 13:55; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, send me your address, dickhead. You made an unprovoked attack on me the other day - you reap what you sow.
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Raceplate,
| Quote: |
If the former is true, then it is promoting smearing and skidding. That also means that conversely, moving the binding forward promotes tip dive, or turn initiation and therefore carving.
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Is that really right? It might be but what I'm struggling with is the comparison with skiing in soft snow which compresses versus hard snow which doesnt. I guess the other problem is that your argument seems to be that applying weight to a shorter edge helps carving which just argues for shorter skis but we know there are compromises in doing that.
Perhaps the final point is that noone succeeds (or even tries!) to be centred all the time -I guess following the logic, skiing on volkls you might, sometimes, use a tiny bit more forward pressure to load up the tips to initiate a turn
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You know it makes sense.
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DB, RP,
you do realise you are calling each other out in an internet discussion about binding mountain points - that it awsemomely, biblically silly 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Raceplate wrote: |
| DB, send me your address, dickhead. You made an unprovoked attack on me the other day - you reap what you sow. |
Where/when?
I expressed an opinion which others agreed to, I wasn't offensive. Anybody can be aggressive from behind the comfort of the internet, especially bullies.
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, don't play innocent, you know damn well. On the "pick of any ski" thread, out of the blue,
| DB wrote: |
| Here's me thinking this was going to be the biggest internet hangbag scuffle since PJSki and Goldsmith only to see Raceplate crumble as soon as someone bites back. |
Followed by comments saying I'm too hard on franzClammer without knowing any of the facts and then a sarcastic video post.
Nobody else agreed with you and one person accused you of trolling. So no, I'm not going to back down to you because I don't crumble.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Isn't mine but here's an address .....
Xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Xxxxxxxxxx
Xxxx
Xxxxxxxxxxx
France
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Children! Play nicely.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, yep, that's a tourist residence. Next time I'm there, come round for tea.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Raceplate,
... but you did crumble.
The facts were as I saw them i.e. you criticising on the internet with no praise and other people inc Ski Instructors finding improvements in franzClammer's skiing.
What's up, got a chip on your shoulder because you are no longer Lv 2 and you're stuck with a lease back in France?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, oh dear, you really are a child.
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I was about to email Professor Nigg and see if he fancied coming on here to defend his small sample size and give an account of why he considered that sufficient to draw those conclusions. I'm glad I didn't. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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andyrew, ask a mod to delete the petty posts (mine & his) and let's move on.
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Raceplate,
The ironic thing is I put up pics that supported your theory about the binding mount and you still came back with the rolling eyes.
You like to criticise, yet can't take it back without reverting to comments such as
| Raceplate wrote: |
| dickhead |
then call other people children? hey look I'm really sorry I touched your ego - I thought the internet barrier would protect you from that. 
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FAQ
