 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
Having just got back from a summer season and having done a few winter seasons too I've decided to take the plunge and set up my own website business.
Basically I got really lucky and found a great ski company to work for but have met a fair few seasonnaires who weren't as lucky. My website is going to give seasonnaires a chance to rate the companies they have worked for to help steer newbies in the right direction, I'm looking to include reviews of chalets they could run too to give them an idea of how much free time they can expect, how easy the chalet is to clean etc.
In order for it to be even remotely successful (ie get enough people visiting to convince people to advertise jobs or stuff and allow me to at least break even!) I need lots of content which has to come from people who know what they are talking about! I could make it all up but that seems kind of counter productive.
If you have been (or still are) a seasonnaire doing anything from chalet work, bar staff or waitressing right through to instructing and would let me e-mail you some forms to fill out that I can use to populate my website then I'd be eternally grateful. Nothing is going to take more than a couple of minutes to complete.
If you know people who would like to advertise jobs they need filling too then let me know, in order to get up and running I'm going to need someone to start me off so I can offer a very competitive rate (free) to the first few of these nice people.
Anyway, thanks for reading all this and as always, any support gratefully appreciated.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ah ah - you've just invented Natives, fortunately there's a gap in the market as any sense of community there seemed to be killed post corporatisation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My 2 yen worth
Are you looking to make money or looking to provide a service?
If it's the former, then I think you'll struggle.
If it's the latter, by providing your personal experiences & opinions and possibly the experiences & opinions of others you may find that the money will be a by-product.
Your sample size of 1 or 2 people raving about or slamming a particular company or chalet will do little to sway decision IMHO.
Sites like Tripadvisor "work" because of volume.
And it will be difficult to secure advertising if the advertiser is one post away from being rubbished.
I could be way off in my thinking and wish you success in your endeavour.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Do you have a name?
Do you have a site up & running?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In no particular order!
The site is being built as we speak, I'm hoping to have it live in the next few weeks and so figured that now was a good time to start looking for people with some experiences that might help put some meat on the bones.
Yes, very aware of Natives, did their cookery course before I did my first season. They are on a scale I can only dream of but they don't really review any employers on the site unless you want to trawl the forums so I'm aiming to be something that is not directly competing and giving people applying for jobs a bit more information in one place.
I'm aware of the dangers of advertisers being wary if their feedback is shocking but I'd rather people went to work for a good companyand have a great season than get a couple of shekels in my pocket. I also think that in time I can get to sufficient volume to make good companies stand out and attract the best workers.
In terms of money making, my aspirations are basic, I would like to recoup my costs and generate enough to keep it running. Anything above that and I'm in dreamland at this point.
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dheason, you've probably considered this but I'll ask it anyway. Why not approach Natives directly to work with them on incorporating your ideas into their site? You could end up going to a lot of trouble building something that another site could only need to invest a bit of development to include on theirs ... and they will have the advantage of a huge userbase and advertisers.
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flowa, Think that might be very much biting the hand that feeds for Natives
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, maybe  I don't know the site well enough but I think there are ways and there are ways of doing things. For instance, finding a way for user-specific but anonymous scoring, at the very least, can't be beyond the wit of man can it? Do they get a finders fee for successful job applications or are they an advertising board for jobs + forum? I always assumed the latter - in which case, no harm I'd have thought.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was of the same mind as Fatbob on this one, seems like they have more to lose than gain by going down this road. They are a bit of everything around seassonaire life but the only real site information on companies is the rather standard profile that you'll find on tour operator websites which isn't always the most accurate reflection of reality.
Sadly there's nothing to stop anyone copying the idea and if they can throw more resources at it than I can then they're up and running but nothing ventured nothing gained and all that!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Have you seen the wages/package comparison spreadsheet I used to do on the natives forum? It's unofficial but user ncontribution made it quite detailed.
Friends often suggest I start some sort of advisory service like that as am quite well connected in the season world, but can't see a way to be honestly helpful and make money (see natives user-desertion for example).
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I've not see it albinomountainbadger but I'll dig it out. Sounds like the sort of thing that would be amazing to include on the site/forum. Any connections you could pass my way would be a big help too!
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You know it makes sense.
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albinomountainbadger, aha! I wonder how many of the 'old' Natives posters are on here under different names? Apart Lizzard of course 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just a question; how will you get round libel/slander laws?
Aren't they why most sites have a no name and shame policies to protect the site owners from litigation.
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Poster: A snowHead
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boredsurfin, who are you calling old, Grandad? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard,
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The libel/slander issue is a big one. I'm not allowing any anonymous posts so people will need to be registered and the system of review is mainly on a rating scale of important areas for seasonnaires (1-5). There's a caveat on every page making it clear that it's the posters own views and not those of the site. There's also a report abuse button on each post to allow moderation. I'll get copied into each comment and if it's not appropriate then I'll moderate it. Biggest hurdle by far and one I'm still playing with.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Have you seen the wages/package comparison spreadsheet I used to do on the natives forum? It's unofficial but user ncontribution made it quite detailed.
Friends often suggest I start some sort of advisory service like that as am quite well connected in the season world, but can't see a way to be honestly helpful and make money (see natives user-desertion for example). |
Ah, didn't realise you were the same person! That was a great resource btw!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, aha! I wonder how many of the 'old' Natives posters are on here under different names? Apart Lizzard of course |
I still occasionally post over there as layzeeboy. Albinomountainbadger = techmonkey?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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dheason, a ratings system might well be too controvertial for the natives site concept as it stands today imho, but who knows what the future may hold?
Volume isn't essential for a niche site to be successful and there are lots of ways to monetise. Even so, there are probably other indirect objectives that could make this worthy of the necessary commitment.
My feeling that your concept is appealing from a number of perspectives and is definitely worth some detailed research on the numbers.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 19-09-13 23:05; edited 1 time in total
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Yes that's me, thought it was obvious from writing style but perhaps not being dismissive enough here... 
Clarky thanks for comment above. layzee your signature link is the big clue, remember your real name from when we met in L2A all those years ago!
On reflection, I doubt the link on natives works anymore as I've changed servers since. It took quite some work to compile though so not really keen to give away to someone intending to make money from it.
The libel issue is the main one I was getting at, in any case you either let staff have a field day or keep it clean for employers. Clearly staff won't pay (unless you offer them something like a union*) so your revenue is going to come from employers (see natives) and so there goes the free reign for staff to slag them off.
*SkiWu lives!
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Have you seen the wages/package comparison spreadsheet I used to do on the natives forum? It's unofficial but user ncontribution made it quite detailed.
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Mini Sequoiaboard used that as her Bible for two seasons planning/strategy. Excellent resource, thanks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dheason,
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The libel/slander issue is a big one
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Trip Advisor are getting away with it daily, seemingly if you follow their methods you'll be fine!
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sequoiaboard, thank you, pleased to learn it helped her find a better deal or avoid being exploited, makes it worthwhile. 
Perhaps I should restart it here? Not many workers but as you demonstrate their parents could contribute details?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Trip Advisor are getting away with it daily, seemingly if you follow their methods you'll be fine! |
...and there are other sites in other sectors that are managing the liable challenge too. Its do-able. It needs knowledge, resource and focus. Don't be deterred.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hello albinomountainbadger, - I didn't realise who you were either. How's it going?
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Perhaps I should restart it here? |
Good idea - espeically as a lot of older seasonaires turn up here with questions - maybe we could have a seasonwork bit of the forum?? Message me if you revive it and I'll send you ours . . .
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
sequoiaboard,
Perhaps I should restart it here? Not many workers but as you demonstrate their parents could contribute details? |
Good idea. Would be happy to put up details for my two. Slightly out of date now but would provide a historic data point for what pay and benefits were around at the time (5 years ago).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Quote: Trip Advisor are getting away with it daily, seemingly if you follow their methods you'll be fine!
...and there are other sites in other sectors that are managing the liable challenge too. Its do-able. It needs knowledge, resource and focus. Don't be deterred. |
The libel point is actually fairly easy to get around. There a few defences to a libel law suit.
"Truth" is a defence to libel and slander. So you as the "publisher" would need to be able to prove that what is posted (i.e. published) on your website is true. You would need to make sure that people who leave reviews agree (i.e. via "Terms of use" when they register on your site) to give only their opinions (and you state it as such on the website review section as well) and to only base their opinions on facts/truth.
This from a law firm website because I have (my own lawyerly) work to do...
"There are three main defences available to a defendant in a libel action; namely, justification, fair comment and privilege.
1) Justification
The defence of justification, or truth, is a complete defence to a libel action. The onus is on the defendant to prove that the allegations are true.
Whilst the defendant does not, necessarily, have to prove the truth of each and every fact, he does have to prove the truth of the substance of the allegation, the defamatory 'sting'.
Even if a defendant is unable or unwilling to prove that the allegations are substantially true, he may nonetheless be able to defend the claim if he can show that it was fair comment or protected by privilege.
2) Honest comment
The defence of honest comment (formerly known as 'fair comment' until the Supreme Court judgment of Joseph v Spiller [2010] UKSC 53) applies only to expressions of opinion, rather than to statements of fact.
A restaurant or theatre review is a classic example of a publication which may be protected by honest comment, although this defence may apply in a variety of different situations.
To succeed in the defence of honest comment the defendant must show that the comment:
is on a matter of public interest;
is recognisable as comment, as distinct from an allegation of fact;
is based on facts which are true (or protected by the defence of privilege);
is on a matter which has been expressly or implicitly put before the public for judgment, or is otherwise on a matter with which the public has a legitimate concern; and
must explicitly or implicitly indicate, at least in general terms, the facts on which it is based (i.e. what it is that has led the commentator to make the comment). Previously, the facts had to be identified sufficiently so as to enable the reader to judge for himself how far the comment was well founded, but following Joseph v Spiller this is no longer the case.
If the claimant can show that the comment was actuated by malice (meaning that the defendant was not expressing his genuine opinion) the defence of honest comment will be defeated. It is not enough, however, to show that the comment was prejudiced, exaggerated or 'unfair' so in practice it can be difficult to prove that the commentator acted 'maliciously'. "
None of the above is intended as legal advice, but I hope this helps quell some fears.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Fantastic bit of help there, cheers for that boardiac, I was going to steal the Trip Advisor tems and conditions and do a find & replace on their name!
Albinomountainbadger, if you started a pay comparison thing here I'd link to it!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dheason, did you set up the website?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The website is still rumbling on, as the design is still ongoing and my other half is 'we thought' lacking two ligaments in her right knee I haven't rushed it! Turns out she's fine! Happy days.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 17-10-13 10:02; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dheason wrote: |
| The website is still rumbling on, as the design is still ongoing and my other half is lacking two ligaments in her right knee I haven't rushed it! |
as she can't move, why not make her or him (edited to remove assumption) do it?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I wouldn't wish designing a website on anyone! My own lack of technical skill mixed with the designer trying to see things from a seasonnaire point of view has been somewhat short of fun! Worth it to see the pay comparator though, I'm going to drop the developed a line and tell them that we're linking to that!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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dheason, am I right in thinking you worked in Plan Peisey last season, with A & H the RMs?
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Hi Dav, yes, that's me, been there the last 2 seasons though!
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So, what happens in the case of a request to take information off a website such as this?
Let's assume they aren't contesting the information presented, they just don't want to be on it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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albinomountainbadger, everything on its own merits. I don't want to police content that isn't wrong. What sort of thing are you thinking?
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Well my wage survey for a start, had a request to remove a company from it this morning...
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FAQ
