 Poster: A snowHead
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Short swing with hard check, justg don't rest after the check otherwise you're just going to be in an accelerating slide.
Keep your head down, upper body stilll and appropriately forward, pole plant is for support here, not just to impress an instructor.
Unless it's narrower than the length of your skis, there should be no problem.
1) Skis across slope edged hard flex down low.
2)Downhill pole solidly in to support you.
3)Extend (really extend) legs and rotate. pressure on balls of feet
4) Once facing downhill, flex down keeping pressure over the feet rotate and plant downhill pole solidly to stop you going over the high side when you edge hard to stop any slip, pressure over arches (ish)
go to 1)
Unless you mean the cat track path bit above the nice wide red (I think it was) after you come out of the mid station of the cable car. Just diagonal side slip that, or go straight over the edge and ski.
I thought braquage was a flat ski techinque ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
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Scot_Ski wrote:
... quite difficult to do on a dry slope ...
I'll say Shocked
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come on if you can do it on a dry slope its much easier on Snow 
DaveC,
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Anyway, has no-one mentioned the easiest route of go straight and deal with it when there's more room?
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that would meet
Megamum, 's thought
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but there is also the dork aspect to consider if there is braver, more effective, 'looks like she knows what she is doing' method.
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I have seen this work especially on the section you mentioned, but be prepared for alot of abuse from the other people on the slope
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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has no-one mentioned the easiest route of go straight and deal with it when there's more room?
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Yes, whitegold suggested it a long way back.
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jonm, I like that a lot!  They have a huge amount of control and are clearly not novices. However, I think I could achieve nearly that or something approaching a similar result with practice. I can more or less manage the slipping with the control they are doing it with. It would be managing the transitions that would take practice and probably cause more problems. I can also see where the speed could be controlled. I'd like to have a go at it certainly. The reds in the woods in Les Arcs on the way to Peisey from 1850 would be an ideal place to have a go at it - they are nice and flat and not too rolling. I can see I shall have to make a list of things I want to try this year.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thirty06, I mean the bit right from the very top of the 2nd big cable car that everyone queues for - you have the option of the 75ft of black or taking the red path off to the left as you leave the car (I strongly considered the black, but the snow was churned and it was very busy - the red path looked the lesser of the two evils) N.B. The wide red bit after the bit of short path from the mid station is not anywhere near the same problem - the drop off on the blue path is not as critical, and the wide red itself was quite skiable once I got the first turn in and the second time I tried it I didn't think twice (snow-snakes notwithstanding  )
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[quote="FastMan"]Megamum,
Unfortunately, with the introduction of the shape ski, instruction models often now attempt to rush people into carving. In the process, development of a full package of the crucially important steering skills, which include the speed control tools I mentioned above, get skipped, leaving students ill equipped for skiing the entire mountain comfortably. At some point, students need to take a step back, and fill the holes in that area of their skill base.
..............a very good point made.
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Hmmm.. haven't been there in ages, so I'm probably confused.
The very top has thin air and thin snow. I went up there once and that was enough.
If it's busy, that's a good enough reason to give it wide berth, especially if it's been choped up by people side slipping, snowploughing and generally hacking it into odd lumps.
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thirty06, I've looked at the piste map - skiing from the top station where the Aiguille Rouge cable car stops at 3226m down the red called Arandelieres - the first bit takes in the path that I wasn't keen on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hi there,
Aside from learning short radius turns and sideslips...
Steep narrow corridors can be overcome with hop turns. That said, you want to learn a hop turn on green terrain and bring it into progressively more difficult terrain.
hop turns can help on the way to short radius, as the hopping motion encourages the lightening of the skis. I imagine there are topics here describing hop turn technique.
You could also learn bracquage [sic?]. It's another stepping stone that can lead to short radius turns. Basically staying within a narrow corridor by flattening the skis, pivoting, and re-engaging the edges. Linked sideslips. (I find it also looks less conspicuous than sideslipping.) Bracquage tends to only work on groomers, not powder or choppy snow.
Avoid a snowplough on steep runs--most people aren't strong enough and it's incredibly stressful on the knees.
There's nothing wrong with doing a steep run here and there to get your heart beating faster (as long as you're not too far out of your league). That said, by spending the bulk of your time on gentler terrain, you'll build up your skills so you can do those steeper runs more often and more confidently in the future.
Enjoy!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Swirly wrote: |
Or that, as on a board, it's a sign the terrain is too demanding for the skiers ability? |
Calm down little snowboarder, skiers do stupid things too - but as above, it's not something a skier can actually do without a basic level of skill, so you don't see as many skiers getting into trouble in terrain they can't handle since they tend to know better from experience. Boarders instantly have their panic tool, so you see it much more in less appropriate places. I really couldn't care less about the skiing vs boarding thing though.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
Megamum, not sure what the definition of a proper turn is, but with braquage (pivot slips for my friend from the other side of the Atlantic  ) your skis are turned/twisted through approximately 180 degrees so in my book that's a proper turn. The speed control comes more from finely balancing the amount of edge angle and skidding with the speed of descent that you want. |
OK, a philosophical question arises from this. We practice rotational skills so we are able to make those pivot slips down a vertical corridor, with no fore or aft motion, and can add in a selected amount of edge for speed control. So when done well we describe essentially the same path as if we were sideslipping. If we have a bit more width available then we may allow a bit of sideways movement as well, or if sideslipping then may do a falling leaf.
But sideslipping down a slope is considered a bit infra dig and a cheats way out. But WHY? If you're in that tight a spot and want to keep the speed down, what's actually gained by putting in all those turns - other than just to show off...see what I can do! In so many other situations we spend all our time talking about efficiency in skiing, but then denigrate the efficiency of an effective sideslip (without any of that enery sapping jumping twisting and jumping about) as a cop-out. I personally really enjoy the feeling of a nicely controlled sideslip with direction control a la falling leaf - maybe with a turn or so at selected intervals to share the load between both sides of the body. Frequently I will put in unnecessary turns for practice at making turns in a tight spot - but that's for skills improvement/practice rather than simply selecting the most appropriate skiing tactics.
Of course, in deeper snow the sideslip is less appropriate as you have more chance of tripping yourself up by catching in a drift of more compacted snow, and you also drag a whole load of snow down the slope with you. In those cases a short swing approach is definitely better.
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You know it makes sense.
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+1
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| But sideslipping down a slope is considered a bit infra dig and a cheats way out. But WHY? |
Not by me. Use whatever tool to get the job done is my view. The more tools you have the more jobs you can do. I sideslip when necessary; the finesse with which you can manage your ski's edges when sideslipping is an essential skill in all other aspects of skiing. However, it might be necessary to change the direction you're facing when sideslipping down a narrow pitch (GrahamN will know this well) so being able to control edges and manage rotation in a tightly confined environment might be one of those tools you need in the toolbox. And in the same way as sideslipping is a great drill for edge control, so braquage type turns are great for developing rotation skills.
PS: How's the lip injury healing?
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Poster: A snowHead
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GrahamN, it's nice to be able to swap sides on extended bits of sideslipping. my downhill leg was nackered by the time i had sideslipped the entire Pan de Rideau!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| GrahamN wrote: |
| But sideslipping down a slope is considered a bit infra dig and a cheats way out. But WHY? |
Not by me. Use whatever tool to get the job done is my view. The more tools you have the more jobs you can do.
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+1
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But what's really needed is somebody on hand when you need a little bit of assistance with sideslipping...
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rob@rar, is that a medical team stretchering off the Invisible Man at XScape ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| PS: How's the lip injury healing? |
All healed up now thanks. Rather lumpy from the internal scar tissue that I'll have to spend a lot of time pumelling to reduce, but nothing major.
(For anyone that's interested: I had a "moment" a month or so ago at training - clipped my ski on the final gate of a training course, the ski came off, I skied on on one ski for 4-5 metres slowing down a bit before finally losing it, headplanted on the Dendix, helmet shifted about a bit and chinstrap broke, I knocked myself out and practically bit my lip off. Or so I am told - fortunately I have zero recollection of that run after passing the first gate. After a CT and facial X-ray pronounced to be free of neck and brian injuries - well, no more than normal - but the Max-Fac guy spent about 90 minutes stitching my lip back together again. New helment now in use. Gumshield on the puchase plan)
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 3-11-10 12:26; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There was a short (maybe 50 or so yards) but fairly steep section of marked black in Switzerland last year, A couple of days before I had pulled a cat out the bag and skied it without side slipping - not with style, but with hanging on with my edges for grim death turns, however, I DID do it. When I went back it was with the intention of doing it again (I'd done it once, I could sure as hell do it again). However, when I got there there was a motorway car crash of people on it in various stages of skiing it, sitting on it, falling on it and generally being less than predictable on it. I reasoned that I couldn't guarantee to get the turns in on the places I'd need to and so in the finish side slipped the entire pitch. It was a brilliant side slip - controlled progressive, effective, but I still feel as though I bottled it un-necessarily and look back on the event with shame:
Re:
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But sideslipping down a slope is considered a bit infra dig and a cheats way out
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I must admit that tends to be how I view it, and I don't get a lot of contradiction from those I ski with.
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GrahamN, glad to hear it. I felt quite faint when I read your email about your crash!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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GrahamN, Sounds nasty. Stacking it on Dendex always hurts 
Glad to hear you are well now.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ouch!! GrahamN!! Sounds like a horrible accident! Glad to hear you are on the mend.
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| Megamum wrote: |
It was a brilliant side slip - controlled progressive, effective, but I still feel as though I bottled it un-necessarily and look back on the event with shame:
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In light of the conditions that you found, it sounds like you handled the situation perfectly Megamum.
Always safety first!
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, you selected the right tool and used it well! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Touchguru, laundryman, +1
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Poster: A snowHead
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But sideslipping down a slope is considered a bit infra dig and a cheats way out. But WHY? If you're in that tight a spot and want to keep the speed down, what's actually gained by putting in all those turns - other than just to show off...see what I can do! In so many other situations we spend all our time talking about efficiency in skiing, but then denigrate the efficiency of an effective sideslip (without any of that enery sapping jumping twisting and jumping about) as a cop-out. I personally really enjoy the feeling of a nicely controlled sideslip with direction control a la falling leaf - maybe with a turn or so at selected intervals to share the load between both sides of the body.
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Absolutely. To suggest (especially to an inexperienced skier who might fall for such claptrap) that a sideslip is a "cheat's way out" is daft and/or dangerous. The instructors commenting above have all pointed out the problems with the tendency to "hurry people into carving". What they're being hurried into is generally sort of kidding themselves that they're carving. I've been skiing a long time, I've had a lot of lessons, I'm not a bad skier, and I can't carve consistently - yet - even on a blue slope. I practice on nice smooth gentle groomers in the mornings so I can see whether I've left really good carved tracks across the slope, and partly back up it again. Usually I haven't - not right across. People who've been skiing a few weeks who think they can do carved turns down red slopes are either supreme natural athletes, or deluded. Because, in the attempt, they think any skidding is "wrong" they're missing out on that progression discussed above. A good exercise - I did with Fastman - was trying to keep a really smooth round turn shape - absolutely no tail tossing or zig zagging or straight lines - but doing a wide angle skid within the prescribed turn shape. Nice feeling - and harder than it seemed at first sight to keep a really consistent shape. Very good exercise for edge control.
Whoever above said that these exercises and other skill development needs to be carried out on an "easy" slope (for the level of skier) is also right. Being in "get down this in one piece" mode can be exciting now and an opportunity to practise new skills, but only once you've learnt them thoroughly on easier terrain.
Can't wait to get out on the slope and try it all again now. Perhaps this will be the season I crack "carving".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GrahamN, glad to hear you are on the mend.
red 27, I have a vision of you plodding round the house LOL
Thanks for the comments re: the side-slip - I guess I just have to get my head around the fact that it wasn't wrong to do, even though I had the mickey taken by some parties 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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even though I had the mickey taken by some parties
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tell them to grow up, and keep doing your own thing!
Doesn't everyone plod round in the ski boots, come November?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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nothing wrong with side slipping.
It's all about adapting to the terrain, and using a technique that is suitable. The more tools you have the better. The better you are at using the tools the more adventurous you can get. Then it becomes psychological, where you expose yourself to more demanding terrain that you have'nt tried before, be that narrower, steeper, bumpier, half pipe, 2ft or 15ft kicker, couloir or drop off. All levels of skier/boarder have their boundaries , but you will never overcome these without confidence and this comes from having confidence in the tools you are using, which is gained from repetition, and giving it a go.
So keep side slipping that piece until you feel comfortable, and when you're ready then pop in a turn.
The first turn is always the hardest !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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limegreen1,
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The first turn is always the hardest !
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'ain't that the truth - once I've done one I seem able to just keep going, but the problems in being able to drop in the first one sometimes can be immense. There is definitely a mind over body thing going on that stops that first turn - I haven't yet found anything that I ulitmately couldn't turn and get down properly on (even that side-slippy bit) once I got started, but sometimes the getting started has been agonising. Why does you mind convince your body that you can't do something when quite clearly you can. 
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so you don't see as many skiers getting into trouble in terrain they can't handle since they tend to know better from experience
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Not as many ?
NO, you tend to see them in twos and fours, sometimes a bold solo effort. The nitwits will be going diagonally across a mogul fields or deep snow that a couple of hundred metres wide or more and they will be maybe ten metres above a piste. They keep going diagonally and sometimes provide amusement by descending at a shallower angle than the blue piste they are trying to join, thus getting further from their objective.
Eventually, lack of remaining space will force them to turn in the direction that would have done them some good in the first place. This sorts out the nervous from the stupid. The nervous will have been hanging on despite their ability and will do a jump turn of similar. The stupid will try a wide snowplough between bumps, leaning waaaaaayyy back, so that they get half way round and then fall over to slide ten feet or so (or wipe out totally and fall half a mile down a black icy mogul run way up the mountain as they will tell it).
On steep and narrow, lack of skiing ability shows up in the tendency to slide with the edges broadside and plough to face the other way thus:
a) scraping the snow off
b) creating rollers, making a simple straight path into a series of steps
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c) Forcing all who follow to do something similar because they now can't cope with the horrible state of the run.
This seems to happen mostly on reds. On that basis I'd probably chose 75 ft of black. Look for the steepest route down as that's usually smooth. Stick to the line doing short controlled swing turns. Count turns and stop for breath every five or so. Figure that you should travel about five to seven feet between turns, the last twenty feet will be easier. Do the math.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I would far rather tackle a steep (even bumpy) thing so long as it's wide. If it's narrow, I will be less happy, whether it is blue (or green) gradient or quite steep.
If I'm going down someothing narrow, I will be going at a speed I can stop comfortably from. So I tend to rotate (both directions, but with a bias away from the edge unless I've feeling brave) when the speed starts creeping up, so I don't have to do a hockey stop, sort of constantly varying angle (skis parallel though) depending on pitch of slope, speed I'm going at, proximity of person in front of me. Definitely slower than skis straight, but not a slow plough (hurts too much) or full sideslip unless I really need to slow down. Focussing on continually varying the angles of edge/direction distracts me from the scary edge I'm trying to ignore, and I feel more in control as I've proved my "brakes" are still working.
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The very top has thin air and thin snow. I went up there once and that was enough.
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Interesting that you should say that. That's the only place where I've felt "weird" and had to descend a few hundred metres before I was OK again. But I'm sure I've been to higher spots and been fine Could it be the speed of ascent that has an effect?
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FAQ
