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Getting Rid of Excessive Inner Ski Tip Lead

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Can someone summarise for me please?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The Voice of Reason, veeeight got hounded out of snowheads for being arrogant and bad at geometry
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The Voice of Reason, you break your feet, you break your head.

BTW skimottaret, did you ever get any exercises that were of any use.
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jbob, yeah but everyone knows you cant learn about how skiing works by reading about it... wink
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
...only by watching it.
So, at the risk of opening a can of worms, using the can to beat a dead horse and feeding the worms to a cat which is among the pigeons, take a look at this:

Svindal GS highspeed cam from aksel svindal
http://www.vimeo.com/14430888
Some of the concepts discussed above (tip lead, divergence, convergence, and of course "stivoting") are all quite visible in super-slow-mo.
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Quote:
BTW skimottaret, did you ever get any exercises that were of any use.
Puzzled
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having re read the whole thread I can now see where veeight was coming from. Both arcs could have the same radius.
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Frosty the Snowman, crikey, you got time on your hands? Shocked
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Yep another thread that needs pics (and is full of norks of a differnt type) Toofy Grin
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Martin Bell, great footage! , i am always surprised at how much the skis flap around when viewed in super slow motion.. i think that is one thing a lot of people forget when they discuss these purist things like parallel shins, concentric arcs etc....
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Frosty the Snowman, quality trolling Laughing
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar,
Quote:
quality trolling
Bloody hell, and I actually fell for it. Embarassed Laughing
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret wrote:
Martin Bell, great footage! ,

It is! I love the airborne transition and pivot, followed by a big drift and lock into the final red gate (at about 1m.21s).
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
So (he say's, wading into the fray 29 pages too late), what is considered to be normal, as opposed to excessive, inner ski tip lead?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
More like rallying - skidding on the way in, hooking up on the way out.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skimottaret, rob@rar, the other interesting thing is how far he pivots his skis around before the gates - the skis are pointing well inside the gate when he starts the skid (most obvious on the last two gates before that final ridge). I seem to remember Ligety (I think) talking about this - sometimes overturning before straightening up to engage the edges, see those cloudburst exercises are useful! - in some clip on YouTube.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret wrote:
Martin Bell, great footage! , i am always surprised at how much the skis flap around when viewed in super slow motion.. i think that is one thing a lot of people forget when they discuss these purist things like parallel shins, concentric arcs etc....
I've often wondered that and whether some of the movements of great skiers, which are studied in the minutest detail, in fact happen by accident - because of glitches in the terrain, or sheer speed, or both - rather than design.
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Hurtle, They are doing whatever is required to get the outcome (ie. line to maximise their speed) they need for that particular gate set. Some of that will be intuitive and\or luck given they are operating at the very limits of their performance.

To contrast, the clip above is very different to the one posted earlier on here, showing GS guys 'free skiing' or more likely warming up, where the movements are much more considered. I suspect the ski's are to a different set of regulations too - smaller radius.


http://youtube.com/v/TTboYL8CjaU
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david@mediacopy,
Quote:

Some of that will be intuitive and\or luck given they are operating at the very limits of their performance.
Yes, that's sort of what I was getting at.
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Hurtle, so bright and yet so gullible Smile
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Martin Bell, that's a great bit of video, thanks for posting it.
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Frosty the Snowman wrote:
Hurtle, so bright and yet so gullible Smile
NehNeh
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this thread has been taken beyond ledgend now....

a thread in bed gets reopened, trolled, pro commented(of which were funny), great video, egged on and birth of my new favorite word/ski technique.... "stivoting" (no idea but all my turns in 2010/11 will be stivoted)


and I think the video is something called "getting the job done", I think some loose the plot and become ski robots
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daehwons, tell me about it...


http://youtube.com/v/luzs63dGHQs&feature=fvst

Apparently the onboard data collection provided the answer to it all...




* I'm sure the creator has posted the clip elsewhere on here.
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david@mediacopy, LOL think the out take version is better tho


http://youtube.com/v/AxqQ_gGlaLo&feature=channel
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Martin Bell, great bit of video.
What amazed me about the video is that the next set if edges are already in-play before Mr Svindal ( wink ) is even vertically above the next gate (i.e. for example he is starting to engage his left edges while the gate is still to his right).

(From this useful piece of info, I hope to come above half-way (for the first time) at the next EoSB Race rolling eyes )
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The Svindal vid is excellent - super slo mo shows just what you can never see in normal slo mo. Is that move at 1.26 the dreaded tail push?
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jbob wrote:


BTW skimottaret, did you ever get any exercises that were of any use.


At the risk of a skimmaty ride, I have this year been skiing with someone who suggested a drill that was effective for me and my ITL. It goes like this. While carving a turn you shuffle your feet, with the idea of getting them in line, the focus needs to be more on the hips than the feet. Obviously you don't want to be doing Mach 10 at the same time.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
I scissor my feet, a relic of old skool skiing I think. It's not something I do deliberately, and it wasn't until fairly recently that I realised I was doing it at all. I was teaching a friend at Milton Keynes last week and she does the same, and I think it is also something she has acquired along the way. I've been looking out for it around the pistes on this trip and I see quite a lot of very proficient skiers doing it, including some of the young racers in the Les Arcs Ski Club for whom it can't be an old skool thing.

I wish I knew a drill which would be an easy fix, but I haven't found any. We talked about it on my L2 course last month (most of us were scissoring to a greater or lesser extent) and addressed it by "unscissoring" our feet when staionary to get a feeling for pushing outside foot forward and drawing inside foot back. We then focused on that while carving medium radius, medium pace turns. What I found helpful was to do some very long runs allowing plenty of turns to experiment with how strong and how weak different stances felt. I'd also be tempted to throw in a few javelin turns to get a feel for a strong, stacked platform. My plan is to keep on focusing on stance on some runs until a more stacked stance is natural for me.

When I was teaching my friend at MK she thought that a scissored stance was stronger and it took some persuasion to show it was biomechanically weak. To show this I got her to remove her skis and stand side-on to me grabbing the ends of my poles while I tried to pull her over sideways. In an exaggerated scissored stance I could pull her over easily because she was not stacked, but when her feet and hips were relatively square to me it was impossible to pull her over.


Can't believe i've only just read this thread ( well parts of it )...and although this comment is from 2008, it still applys for me today.
I've been working on the same problem all season, and it has taken me the best part of a season to iron it out...most annoying.
I too am an 'old skool' skier' and have had to adopt to 'new' ideas.
I also didn't realise i was 'doing it' until it was pointed out during personal training for my level 3 exams.
My Trainer also said it was common in 'old skoolers' and people from racing backgrounds. The outside ski pushed too far back, forward over the front of the skis, and ankle flexed too much...all stemming from Old race tecniques.
Because these 'feelings' had been ingrained over many years, it was hard to shift them.
Discussions and drills and how it should feel, all unsued over the course of the season. Like i said...it took a season to correct.
What eventually worked for me, was to first find a more neutral stance, feel taller in the ankle and get off the front of my boots.
Then shown statically ( as above ) how biomechanically strong it was.
Fortunately people on level 4 courses were also working on this and could even refine it back to snowplough...not so easy to explain...easier to demonstrate.

For me I was getting stuck on my inside ski from the transition of the turn, which lead to scissoring.
At transition point of the turn, I made sure both my skis were flat on the snow, then in my head felt like i was leading the turn with my inside knee...this was only momentary, but gave me enough room to angulate and keep the skis, and legs parrallel....almost a 'toppling' sensation...
As I got to 90 degrees to the fall line in the turn, I tried to make sure that all joints at that point were facing straight down the fall line.
Chest, waist,hips, knees, shins and ankles...all facing down the fall line and equal.
At the start it actually felt like i was pushing my outside ski forward and pulling my inside ski back...trying to stay down the fall line meant angulating more instead of inclining.
This stopped the scissoring, and enabled me to get the outside ski more forward, stronger and more balanced...you can really feel the difference....especially as the pressure starts to load and angulation increases....you can feel the pinch more.
All in all, when mastered, everything becomes easier. You feel more balanced and stronger and funnily enough...faster when racing.
I also found doing more stretching in the hip and pelvic regions helped....as you really do feel it in the hip joint when fully loaded and angulated.

Great thread btw...even if old.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 16-04-13 9:26; edited 1 time in total
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spud, it is probably the most talked about "Bend ze knees" thread ever!!

I found out I suffered with it too this season, although the terminology used was "Poor fore-aft seperation control" Laughing
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Poor fore-aft seperation control


the title of my next thread
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spud wrote:
For me I was getting stuck on my inside ski from the transition of the turn, which lead to scissoring.
I've mostly fixed the scissoring (although a better technical term for it is sagittal split as the skis don't usually diverge like a pair of scissors would), but when I get trapped on my inside ski at the start of a turn that's when it creeps back in. The fix was to make sure I stand on the outside ski effectively as I come through the transition and it to the setup phase of the turn (ie, the opposite of getting trapped on my inside ski) then even at big edge angles I don't end up with excessive inner tip lead.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spud wrote:
Great thread btw...even if old.
I doubt you've read all of it wink
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hehehe scissoring Cool
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Nope...haven't read it all, but what i have read made a lot of sense...especially as it's what i've been working on all season rolling eyes
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I did consider reading the whole thread but then decided life's too short.
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dulcamara wrote:
then draw 2 sketchy S's in the snow and explain confidently that this makes it obvious why you should do it!! finally draw two lines down the middle of the S in order to plant the idea that you diserve a tip for your confident drawing. BANG ski instructing 101

Laughing Laughing Laughing
That would def get a tip from me
Classic Cool
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was working on this yesterday with a group of strong skiers, seems like only a decade ago when I first started thinking about it Wink
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Legendary thread, I remember it like it was yesterday! 10 years wow! Where did that time go?
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