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Is the 'one ski quiver' dead

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I've had a bit more time on snow this winter, much to my joy, and I'm having to face up to the fact that although my 84 waist Nordica HellandBacks can handle pretty much all conditions. Even light powder (just) at my weight. But it really is a very narrow 'sweet spot' to stay in as snow conditions change underfoot and I find myself constantly having to very consciously and positively adjust position, weighting and skills type to suit . . . Very tiring. Ok I know this is good practice but I feel that I'm ALWAYS in practice/drills mode and never just having fun!

I'm really considering hitting the shops for a short slalom/ski cross tool to loon around tight turns on the bashed bits and something else in the 95-110 range for getting lost with in the woods. Quiver killed obviously, but it's a bit more than 5 mins to swap over my tele clips and alpine AT heels.

Your thoughts?


Edit for appalling grammar (split infinitive)


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 13-03-18 14:16; edited 1 time in total
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The fact that the All Mountain category is doing so well, suggests it is very much alive.....but maybe not with those who ski a lot.

IMO. You should go for it...especially if you keep your eye on the Sales. I got my SL skis many years ago, from an end of season sale at S&R and my Scott The Ski at over 60% off from Glisshop.
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@Old Fartbag, can't say I've ever seen an 'All Mountain' ski onna mountain. They're all over the bashed bits but the guys stomping off towards the trees are all on fatties or splitboards. I think the 'All Mountain' moniker has been a marketing masterpiece for a lot of (ahem) pretentious pillocks to turn up at the lift gates and surreptitiously suggest 'will you LOOK at the size of my shovel' . . . nudge, nudge, wink, wink . . .

Yes they're great skis, but to get the best out of them you REALLY need to know how to ski and you need to be 'match fit' to stay in control for a long day off the groomers.
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auntie masque wrote:
@Old Fartbag, can't say I've ever seen an 'All Mountain' ski onna mountain. They're all over the bashed bits but the guys stomping off towards the trees are all on fatties or splitboards. I think the 'All Mountain' moniker has been a marketing masterpiece for a lot of (ahem) pretentious pillocks to turn up at the lift gates and surreptitiously suggest 'will you LOOK at the size of my shovel' . . . nudge, nudge, wink, wink . . .

Yes they're great skis, but to get the best out of them you REALLY need to know how to ski and you need to be 'match fit' to stay in control for a long day off the groomers.

I agree...but aren't the people who are heading further off the beaten track, more likely to be people who ski more than 1 week per year (and have a piste ski in the garage).

I happen to be very light, at 64kg, so a 180 Scott the Ski gives reasonable float....not that i often get the chance to use it. Certainly bringing it to Colerado this year in search of powder, seemed to jinx the whole area. I'd have had much more fun on a slalom ski (almost extinct there). rolling eyes
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@auntie masque,
Quote:
can't say I've ever seen an 'All Mountain' ski onna mountain.
You would see me! I ski everything on my RTM 81s at the mo, now that my Mantras (90mm) are clapped out. Can't say I notice a huge difference, other than that they are a lot more agile on piste and offer incredible grip on ice, which the Mantras never did.
Maybe if I was doing waist deep powder I would opt for something fat, but in your average Euro pow I just don't quite see the point.
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@Steilhang, I KEEL U Shocked Mantras with no grip on ice!!! You're riding the rockered shoite they made the last 3 years . . . The M5 has gone back to the '14 profile with a much lightened construction.

However, it has to be remembered that I'm at the upper end of the weight scale, which assists, with a bit of technique, in getting an edge to bite. Lighter skiers will always require more "body english" to drive a heavy and/or stiff ski. I do sometimes wonder if a light male would be better served with an aggressive woman's ski?
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auntie masque wrote:
I do sometimes wonder if a light male would be better served with an aggressive woman's ski?

Plenty of lighter male Masters racers are using 155cm SL and U16 spec GS skis.
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@auntie masque, they were old pre-rocker Mantras (hence clapped out). Great ski. The lack of grip probably had something to do with the set of Naxo touring / freeride bindings I had on them. Not sure. At any rate the RTMs ski like on rails, and give enough float for the kind of powder I encounter round here, so what's not to like?
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@Steilhang,
Quote:

Maybe if I was doing waist deep powder I would opt for something fat, but in your average Euro pow I just don't quite see the point.


The point? It's really simple - they are so easy to use that they can make a decent/enthusiastic recreational skier feel like a rockstar for a few moments. They make powder skiing very flattering and even more fun. I was hooning around on my redeemers on a powder day this season and just felt absolutely indestructible. They don't make you a better skier but they make you feel like one. That's why people like them so much!

I can ski pretty much any European conditions on my 75mm waist stocklis just not as freely as I can on fatter skis.
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@Steilhang, I've never ridden the RTMS so I've no comparison but my '14 Mantras (before boogered by a ski tech) were rock solid on ice . . . But I'm 100kg with reasonable angulation wink on NTN telemark clips, so limited forward pressure.

So here's the rub, should I invest in another 100 (or thereabouts) 'magic' snow tool or just bite the bullet and go for a piste pocket rocket plus a powder hammer?
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@jedster, understood. My feeling though is that I actually get almost the same float from the RTM 81s as I did from the Mantras. I get the impression that the important thing as far as float is concerned is really the tip width. Maybe the fact that the RTMs are rockered makes the difference. Anyway, all just my view on things!
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@auntie masque

Bit of a strange thread title IMO. Not sure if you are talking in general or on a personal level.

On a general level:

If you just ski piste you need a piste ski. If you are fortunate enough to be skiing good pow all day you need a pow ski. If you are going to be skiing piste, side piste, some lift served off piste with some crud thrown in - you need an all mountain ski. If you have two sets of skis the chances are you are going to be spend the day on one or t'other. But for many, days are a mix and you need a jack of all trades.

In terms of you personally:

Reading the reviews on the H&B's I see this from snow magazine "Heading into deeper snow, they perform well too, but it’s not the easiest to handle and although very competent off-piste skiers will find them fun to turn on, less experienced skiers might find them a little tricky to master." Mmmmm... It seems to be great on piste but that review doesn't inspire me in terms of it's off piste capabilities. Either way 84 is narrow for an all mountain these days - especially given you are heavy. I am 100kgs and ski Cham 97's - which are heavy. You can short turn them... to a point. At the end of the day they are never going to match a single use slalom ski. So, long and short - perhaps you've just have the wrong all mountain skis.

Furthermore, your thinking of buying a set of slalom ski's seems odd. Where does that leave the H&B's which you struggle with off piste?

auntie masque wrote:
[b]Yes they're great skis, but to get the best out of them you REALLY need to know how to ski and you need to be 'match fit' to stay in control for a long day off the groomers.

All mountain ski's don't differ from any other genre in that they are built for different standards/types of skiers. And your quest is to find something that suits. All mountain skis in general, aren't just for people who really know how to ski. And I would suggest you need to be 'match fit' to spend a long day skiing whether it's groomers or not.
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In answer to the question

No as long as your OSQ is about 118mm wide and rockered.

But more generally yes if you ski a lot and in varied conditions. Personally I think a 3SQ is about optimal - a dedicated groomer/hardpack ski, a versatile everyday ski and a big/fun gun, adjust for prefs re touring etc.

One thing I've noticed recently is that a carbon ski may be absolutely joyous in most conditions and then become a total vibation nightmare on groomers setting to concrete.
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I can't generally be ersed taking multiuple skis. My Bonafides do everything I want (the Inferno this year).

And I own many pairs of skis.
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My OSQ is a set of Mantras with Outlaw bindings. Will do everything, grip, carve well on the piste, float and generally entertain me anywhere. Having said that, I also have a pair of 155 Racetigers (proper FIS ones too) with Rottefellas on, which are perfect
Quote:

to loon around tight turns on the bashed Toofy Grin Toofy Grin

,

so it seems my OSQ might be a TSQ Puzzled ... but the Racetigers don't come out to play very often
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 Poster: A snowHead
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I own two pairs of 'All Mountain' skis which are very different.

One pair, Salomon XT850s, are more piste orientated but perform fine in the powder with a bit of effort. They are 85mm underfoot so reasonable float but as I'm about 95kg need some speed, or effort, to turn when the snow gets deep.

The other pair, Faction Chapter 106s, are also capable both on and off piste but much more off oriented. They are fine on the piste as long as you don't expect them to behave like piste skis and are prepared to put in the extra effort to get them on edge properly. They are 106mm underfoot so give plenty of float in the powder but have good torsional rigidity.

With these two pairs I'm set for almost anything both on and off piste. I simply decide which pair based on which I am going to be doing more of and what the conditions are like. I'm sceptical that you can find something that is really good on one and not them compromised on the other though - even with these two 'All Mountain' skis it's clear that they suit a particular set of conditions and locations.

So, my solution is to buy a SnowTube (two ski version) and put two pairs in it .... then you're sorted.
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auntie masque, Get thee to Diamond Peak, and try some out, they have 40% sale on atm wink

I know as SWMBO managed to purchase quite a lot - but got me some smartwool socks for a cracking price ( £8.00 per pair )
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auntie masque wrote:
... just bite the bullet and go for a piste pocket rocket...


Just do it!
You won’t regret it Little Angel
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WEll I just found mine

Kastle fx95hp
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My 2p

Whether the 'one ski quiver' exists, really comes down to what your objectives are in a ski, and thus how you define the concept as a whole.

To some people, they ski for fun and any ski which physically handles the terrain, keeps under control, and gives them a great day out, is a valid ski. For those people, a single ski quiver is a possible thing. Depending on their real interests and their technique too, there's bound to be plenty of things in the 80-100mm all mountain ski bracket, which with good edges provide a fast, controlled, turning ski for the piste; and yet also provides enough float and ease of turning for fun and control in the off-piste too. So for these people, the 'one ski quiver' concept makes total sense.

To some people, they want to ski each situation the best they can possibly ski it. This will come down in part to kit, and in part to technique. But the kit is important. So for pistes, they want a hardcore carver and for bluebird powder days they want wide floaty scaffold boards on their feet. And nobody really produces a sharp-turning hardcore carver, that can really float in powder and turn on a sixpence with zero speed. Basically because, the ski design that makes one thing happen, largely opposes the other. Short turn carvers want stiff camber, narrow waists and pronounced side cuts. Floaty powder skis want large surface area and relatively little camber. It's very difficult to do both. So for these people, the 'one ski quiver' concept doesn't work.

And there are some people who don't give a f*ck. And for them, the single ski quiver generally works fine because it's the cheapest, simplest option. And I think a lot of us with serious quivers, sometimes really wish that we could be part of this category.

Neither is right nor wrong. Different people ski for different reasons and use different paths to get to where they want to be. Some people ski in a manner where the single ski quiver can totally work. Some people ski in a manner where it doesn't. And nobody has any right to judge anyone else or question their method for whichever category they sit in.

I used to be the former. I started on all mountains, which I bought when I was in the last category. I then bought some hardcore powder skis, and, with eyes on a few different options for a hardcore carving ski, drifted towards the second category. But then in a combination of an injury, a re-evaluation of my spare time and finances, and a general rethink about how I approached skiing, I've moved a bit more into the first category and bought myself some Whitedot Preachers. Which I appreciate, are definitely sub-optimal on piste, at least compared the Volkl Code L's and Nordica Doberman Spitfires that I was demoing; and definitely sub-optimal off piste, compared to the Ragnaroks which I own. But, (1) in both circumstances, they're definitely very good, (2) they bring me more fun, smiles, and out-loud laughter than any other ski I've ever tried, and (3) mean that by excluding my airbag too, I can fit a pair of skis and a week's clothes in a double ski bag, and save myself an excess baggage charge with the airline.
Point being, I have a single ski quiver; and if I can find some nice carvers to supplement my powder skis, I can have a two-ski quiver too. Then I can be either of the first two categories, depending on my mood, what I hope to gain from the trip, and whether I can afford the second suitcase or not.

I don't think we need to have this persistent argument over whether the One Ski Quiver is a reality, a pipe dream, an outdated philosophy or a poor appreciation of ski technology. It's a thing which can be as real or as impossible as you want it to be depending on how you personally want to approach skiing and the equipment which you use for it. Anyone who thinks that their 112mm DPS one-ski-quiver is just as technically strong as a pair of pedigree FIS SLs on a hard icey piste is kidding themselves, but they're no more kidding themselves than a person with a set of FIS SLs and a pair of 120mm surfboards who thinks that you can't have a perfectly good time in any conditions on a pair of reliable all-mountains. It just depends on what you're looking to get out of it.
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Its the colour that matters.
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DrLawn wrote:
Its the colour that matters.
You've been talking to my wife?
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@dp, my old FIS SLs were perfectly fine in powder.
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@Layne, nice post, it outlines my predicament and it's all about the 'fun factor'. The first skis I ever bought were 155 Atomic SXs, they were like razor blades and utterly useless beyond carving tight turns on ice at insane speeds . . . and I never came off the hill without a big cheesy grin. Very superficial I know, but I miss that feeling. (I sold them when I went tele)
To be sure the H&Bs are not the most intuitive of skis but I've persevered with them because of that and they have 'upped my game' quite considerably. . . . But they have never made me smile.

A ski tech destroyed my 0'14 Mantras NTN telemark mounted and they were replaced with 0'16 Cham97s that I've only used for a couple of days. First impressions are of a ski set up for soft stuff with a side cut profile to imitate a fast turning carver. I found that when I drive them I can't settle into a sweet spot, boot pressure has to be maintained or they'll start to washout and they have boogerall tail spring. In tele mode that makes them a bit 'hooky' on piste but really nice in soft crud . . . So fer me, a bit marmite at the moment.

I know where I can get some new '16/17 Cham107s fer about $290 . . . so just a bit tempted ( I'm cheap wink )

Basically, what I want is to wake up, look at the hill and know I'll come off it at the end of the day with a happy grin, a wee stiffy and the need of a good beer Toofy Grin
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under a new name wrote:
@dp, my old FIS SLs were perfectly fine in powder.


I'm sure they were. But were they 'optimal' in the way that a pedigree powder ski would be?

I don't think you got my post at all. The whole point of my post was - if one ski works for you then you have a one ski quiver. If it doesn't, then you don't. It's not a competition.


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 14-03-18 0:24; edited 1 time in total
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@under a new name, good to see you’re sticking to your guns.... 8 years later 🤣🤣🤣

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1506215&sid=9c30fff97b70a86d302803a75d42e026
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BobinCH wrote:
@under a new name, good to see you’re sticking to your guns.... 8 years later 🤣🤣🤣

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1506215&sid=9c30fff97b70a86d302803a75d42e026


Really good thread, as was the linked one. One ski quiver? Atomic Vantage 90 CTi, works for me every day of the season. Not worried about 100% performance, just 100% fun.
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auntie masque wrote:
...
Basically, what I want is to wake up, look at the hill and know I'll come off it at the end of the day with a happy grin, a wee stiffy and the need of a good beer Toofy Grin


Snowbunnies.com
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
There really is no such thing as a one ski quiver or should I say one ski does all ski.It just depends on what you have the most opportunity to ski and what you like skiing and where you are prepared to compromise.
Previously I have skied everything on a 76mm ski but the offpiste has been quite light and it hasnt mattered if they sink as the snow has easily parted around my legs. This week we have been skiing bottomless porage and even my new 95s have been sinking with my 90+ kg on them despite them having a 140mm shovel up front.
Asking advice on this forum about skis has some use but it's more about making you think about what YOU want from a pair of skis rather than what others recommend, I bought skis that are very different from what most people recommended and I'm very happy with them.
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At the end if the day it's what works for you and the compromises you are prepared to make. Personally I'll always err on the side of soft snow performance if there is any prospect of soft snow, others prefer to err on the side of hardpack grip and carving ease.

Where the industry doesn't help itself is in its use of the term All- mountain. When a ski co says it it generally means mainly groomers with a bit of bimbling off the side. People who genuinely ski all mountain i.e. groomers are just for a warm up, social cruise and getting back to the lift are generally using something 95-112mm these days IME ( non-lightweight adult male )
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Have skis gotten worse, or is the snow different these days?

Back in the 80s I did a whole season (120 days) on my Dynastar Omeglass 190s ( powder, bumps, jumps, forest, piste, a river, a car park, some allotments, steps outside a pub etc.. ).

We just used the same skis, but adapted our technique to the terrain and conditions.
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@WindOfChange, Good for you but I suspect you're not on those Omeglass now ( and why were you on a short-ass length?). Or if you are da kidz are blowing past you on their rockered clown shoes on a pow day.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Very Happy Short ass skis for short ass skier ( 1m65 ).
You are of course correct -I do not use those anymore as I have turned to the Darkside.
But still only use 1 board for everything.
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WindOfChange wrote:
We just used the same skis, but adapted our technique to the terrain and conditions.

Err, most people do. That is what the discussion is about.

The skis I use today (Dynastar Cham 97) are better than the skis I first used (Salomon Super Force 9 2S) but I still do all the same stuff.
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One board quiver is pretty easy unless you're some jibtastic park rat. Though I was surprised in the US recently to see the huge number of modern swallowtails (well actually more like Manx swallowtails given how truncated the tails seem to be) which I can assume were powder day sticks.
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If I had to fly with skis then I'd still have a one ski quiver - something like mantras - and I'd have fun in all conditions on them.
I have only once in my life bothered to carry two pairs of skis for myself on a plane and I barely used the second pair.

As I have a "cave" in the alps my ski collection has grown to 3 pairs plus an old pair with frame touring bindings that I keep to lend to people. They all get used depending on the conditions and where I am skiing and they do make things a bit more fun than, say, skiing on mantras all the time. A bit.
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