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Skiers skiing faster, often too fast

 Poster: A snowHead
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Kj82 wrote:
must be to do with the way each type of ski is skied in that relatively very little input is required for modern skis

Did you spend much time on straight skis?....and imo, it is certainly to do with the amount of input required, the reduced length and the technology that now allows skis to be torsionally stiff, yet longitudinally supple.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It is still beyond me why there is not more supervision and policing of the slopes. Pistes are a contained environment where speed and risk of injury to others could easily be controlled (as happens in some places in North America). My son was wiped out this year by a yobbish snowboarder, I have suffered broken ribs from an incompetent middle aged skier, and I have witnessed numerous falls caused by inconsiderate/incompetent slope users (some of whom did not even notice they had caused a problem). It is high time we had some rules (actual clear rules, not "guidance"), and enforced them both by consensus (i.e. us all challenging the risky behaviours we see) and sanction (fines and withdrawal of lift passes). I suspect that doing so would increase the enjoyment of the majority of slope users.
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Old Fartbag wrote:
Kj82 wrote:
must be to do with the way each type of ski is skied in that relatively very little input is required for modern skis

Did you spend much time on straight skis?....and imo, it is certainly to do with the amount of input required, the reduced length and the technology that now allows skis to be torsionally stiff, yet longitudinally supple.


was on straight skis about 4 times; fell badly at the age of 9 and never went back on skis till is was 21/22 on.... yep, nice carvers Smile

Straight skis and dendex.... horrible.
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I'll just leave these here:


http://youtube.com/v/W0gTsvnUGSQ

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/skier-dies-after-tree-collision-at-breckenridge-ski-resort/

Horrible thing to happen and witness, and, by the sound of Knapton's account, stupid and unavoidable.
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chivdog wrote:
I'll just leave these here:


http://youtube.com/v/W0gTsvnUGSQ

https://www.vaildaily.com/news/skier-dies-after-tree-collision-at-breckenridge-ski-resort/

Horrible thing to happen and witness, and, by the sound of Knapton's account, avoidable.
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I was thinking about the catching of edges, as my bro who still has a rather legs together stance managed to catch an edge on the Mantras he was using... Embarassed

I think "catching an edge" was getting your CoM outside the outside edge, which then engaged and threw you over. Wide stance more or less avoids that.

Less energy is certainly required for modern skis (on a smooth piste) until you are really getting hard over on an edge.
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I went to Pas last week and there were places where you could get some serious speed (but not necessarily safely), I heard some interesting tales on the way home....

A group of snowboarders at the airport were chatting about how they were all trying to get past 40mph and they were joking about how some were only stopping by either trying to do a big arc or by hitting the deck at the end.

Then later a skier was telling a guy on the plane about hitting 120kph on the Antenes black at the top of Pas!! 120kph jeeezus. When heading up from Grau Roig you could see people straight lining it.

I was travelling down the main run into Pas at a reasonable speed and as I approach the apex of a lump there were people the other side walking, easily avoided but if someone was doing high speed there (which was possible) that would have been a tough dodge.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Some skiers / boarders can ski fast but always make the same type/shape turns and don't seem to be able to change mid turn in order to avoid others.


http://youtube.com/v/SCJBf2l3xLc


http://youtube.com/v/JutHK2eRp10


http://youtube.com/v/ii3E_7qqyIY


http://youtube.com/v/EtjSTjKiIxU

Once watched a large group of teenage racers on a glacier racing each other down to lunch. Yes they were going too fast for a recreational piste, yes they buzzed learner skiers on a busy piste, yes they came close to others skier and each other but their ability to tighten the turn or put in a lightening quick turn in the opposite direction was impressive.
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DB wrote:
Some skiers / boarders can ski fast but always make the same type/shape turns and don't seem to be able to change mid turn in order to avoid others.
...or have much awareness of other slope users! Interesting to see that in your second video it looked like they were two older guys, not a couple of speeding youths as is so often the caricature.
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rob@rar wrote:
DB wrote:
Some skiers / boarders can ski fast but always make the same type/shape turns and don't seem to be able to change mid turn in order to avoid others.
...or have much awareness of other slope users! Interesting to see that in your second video it looked like they were two older guys, not a couple of speeding youths as is so often the caricature.


Yes I suspect people who are able to put in different turn shapes & types (short, long, carved, skidded) esp on different terrain (e.g. bumps, slush, brakeable crust) are more aware what the other skiers on the piste could do. e.g. People who can both ski and board also seem to be more aware. The second example is a classic example of two different ski styles a new/old, short/medium turn style of skiing coming together with a bump. Neither expected the other to take the path they did and neither modified their turn to avoid the other.

I 've skied with people whose only ski aim seems to be to get the highest speed on their GPS. They go for race skis (punter not FIS) that are stable for higher recreational speeds but aren't the easiest things to turn at short notice especially if the skier is lacking skill.
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In the four clips above posted by @DB:

Clip 3, why on earth does the snowboarder keep saying sorry. Sure hang around to make sure the skier is physically ok, but they having absolutely nothing to apologise for. Should be the other way round which I heard no evidence of.

Clip 4, that's the type of straightlining for no good reason, in an inappropriate place and beyond the skiers ability that the thread is about surely.
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DB wrote:
Yes I suspect people who are able to put in different turn shapes & types (short, long, carved, skidded) esp on different terrain (e.g. bumps, slush, brakeable crust) are more aware what the other skiers on the piste could do.
One of the things I often notice when teaching is that when my clients improve their skills they definitely improve their awareness of what is going on around them, including what other people are doing on the slope. Not just a better understanding of what other slope users might do, but also greater capacity for awareness. I guess that as you get better at skiing you have more room in your brain for other stuff, like what's going on around you.

In your 2nd example, the guy doing the longer radius turns seemed to have no awareness of the other chap has he finished his turn. When I take a line like that I always have a quick glance over my shoulder to look up the hill as I approach the side of the piste, especially if I'm coming in to stop. It's something I encourage my clients to do, helping them to develop that awareness.
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DB wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
DB wrote:
Some skiers / boarders can ski fast but always make the same type/shape turns and don't seem to be able to change mid turn in order to avoid others.
...or have much awareness of other slope users! Interesting to see that in your second video it looked like they were two older guys, not a couple of speeding youths as is so often the caricature.


Yes I suspect people who are able to put in different turn shapes & types (short, long, carved, skidded) esp on different terrain (e.g. bumps, slush, brakeable crust) are more aware what the other skiers on the piste could do. e.g. People who can both ski and board also seem to be more aware. The second example is a classic example of two different ski styles a new/old, short/medium turn style of skiing coming together with a bump. Neither expected the other to take the path they did and neither modified their turn to avoid the other.

I 've skied with people whose only ski aim seems to be to get the highest speed on their GPS. They go for race skis (punter not FIS) that are stable for higher recreational speeds but aren't the easiest things to turn at short notice especially if the skier is lacking skill.


I remember a few years ago purchasing a pair of atmoic gs11 skis. Lasted 1 morning because they were so difficult to turn in and i was way out of my depth. Swapped them for streetracer 8s which were more my level. My point is that the punter race skis are dangerous for those not competent. I full agree with that point.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
DB wrote:
Yes I suspect people who are able to put in different turn shapes & types (short, long, carved, skidded) esp on different terrain (e.g. bumps, slush, brakeable crust) are more aware what the other skiers on the piste could do.
One of the things I often notice when teaching is that when my clients improve their skills they definitely improve their awareness of what is going on around them, including what other people are doing on the slope. Not just a better understanding of what other slope users might do, but also greater capacity for awareness. I guess that as you get better at skiing you have more room in your brain for other stuff, like what's going on around you.

In your 2nd example, the guy doing the longer radius turns seemed to have no awareness of the other chap has he finished his turn. When I take a line like that I always have a quick glance over my shoulder to look up the hill as I approach the side of the piste, especially if I'm coming in to stop. It's something I encourage my clients to do, helping them to develop that awareness.


thats a good point i try to do this too and also signal to skiers behind if i am away to stop. strictly speaking it shouldn't be required but better to be safe than sorry.
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Kj82 wrote:
I remember a few years ago purchasing a pair of atmoic gs11 skis. Lasted 1 morning because they were so difficult to turn in and i was way out of my depth.
Laughing I had a very similar experience the first time I skied on a pair of FIS spec slalom skis. Was exhausted and demoralised after a couple of days so swapped to a pair of Salomon Pocket Rockets, the softest, most benign pair of skis I could find. Many years later I really enjoy the odd occasion when I get back on a pair of slalom skis, knowing that I have to ski them well or I'll be popped in to the back seat on virtually every turn.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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Kj82 wrote:
...and also signal to skiers behind if i am away to stop.
I do that sometimes, pointing to the side of the piste where I plan to stop. Whether the gesture is seen or understood I have no idea, but no harm in that bit of extra info.
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rob@rar wrote:
In your 2nd example, the guy doing the longer radius turns seemed to have no awareness of the other chap has he finished his turn. When I take a line like that I always have a quick glance over my shoulder to look up the hill as I approach the side of the piste, especially if I'm coming in to stop. It's something I encourage my clients to do, helping them to develop that awareness.


Yes I do the same especially if I'm changing my turn pattern (e.g. from short turns to larger turns on a flater section of piece). Technically if hit from behind I would be in the right being the downhill skier but it's like riding a motorbike, avoiding an injury is better than being right.

Knowing your limits and how fast you can react then ammending your speed to suit is a sign of a good skier, almost any idiot can straight line a pair of skis.
If a top level skier (Régine Cavagnoud) is not able to avoid an unexpected skier in her path at 100km/h then I certainly can't.
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Quote:

I was thinking about the catching of edges, as my bro who still has a rather legs together stance managed to catch an edge on the Mantras he was using...

I think "catching an edge" was getting your CoM outside the outside edge, which then engaged and threw you over. Wide stance more or less avoids that.


Yes... At february half term I spent a couple of days on my 75mm waist stocklis - really enjoying carving up the piste and making very quick/smooth transitions from one highly angulated carve to another.

Then I took my 108mm whitedots out. That wasn't primarily to ski pistes but I did a bit of that and tried to ski them in the same way. Now the radius is 28m vs 18m so you can't make exactly the same turns but I was still trying to make similar transitions. I ended up on my backside twice! I couldn't quite work out what was happening but then realised that I was getting stuck on the (new) inside ski after transition - catching an edge. Simple remedy was to open my stance a bit. My stance is never that narrow but wider skis really do require a wide stance if you are going to carve them. Of course that wider stance does slow the transitions a bit which is one of the reasons people don't race gates on 100mm waist skis!
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DB wrote:
Technically if hit from behind I would be in the right being the downhill skier but it's like riding a motorbike, avoiding an injury is better than being right.
Yup. I lost most of last season to an accident where I was hit from behind. Would have been nice to avoid it, and being the innocent party didn't stop me from being the injured party.
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jedster wrote:
Now the radius is 28m vs 18m so you can't make exactly the same turns but I was still trying to make similar transitions. I ended up on my backside twice! I couldn't quite work out what was happening but then realised that I was getting stuck on the (new) inside ski after transition - catching an edge. Simple remedy was to open my stance a bit. My stance is never that narrow but wider skis really do require a wide stance if you are going to carve them. Of course that wider stance does slow the transitions a bit which is one of the reasons people don't race gates on 100mm waist skis!
When switching to wider skis I focus for the first run or two on slowing down my transition as it is very easy to move too far on to the inside ski if you have the same rate of movement as you have on narrower skis. I don't think I widen my stance, although that might happen subconsciously. I remember the first time I skied a pair of properly wide skis (118mm under foot) and there was just no way I could ski them like a skied my piste skis. Just couldn't get them to go edge to edge, so had to put in an ugly pivot at the start of each turn or straightline the entire piste. Was quite the learning experience!
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rob@rar wrote:
DB wrote:
Technically if hit from behind I would be in the right being the downhill skier but it's like riding a motorbike, avoiding an injury is better than being right.
Yup. I lost most of last season to an accident where I was hit from behind. Would have been nice to avoid it, and being the innocent party didn't stop me from being the injured party.


that must be so frustrating. i guess in a similar fashion to being a motorcyclist the best approach is to assume all other piste users are idiots with zero regard for your safety.
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Kj82 wrote:
that must be so frustrating.
Yes, although my only collision in 30+ years of skiing, so I suppose I shouldn't be too resentful.
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@rob@rar,
He/she obviously needed lessons I hope you got some business out of it. Toofy Grin

There's more ....


http://youtube.com/v/4GMx7e8vYeE


http://youtube.com/v/112bBO70AhE


http://youtube.com/v/1qn1WwKiGRM
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@DB, you're the King of Youtube!
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DB wrote:
@rob@rar,
He/she obviously needed lessons I hope you got some business out of it. Toofy Grin
Sadly not. But I did get a ride in a helicopter and my first taste of morphine, so not all bad.
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Some people can't even deal with stationary obstacles to their path...


http://youtube.com/v/Ndt_fziu_pQ
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@DB, with your last three videos, I don't think that speed caused the incident but being filmed certainly did with the first two. Maybe the third one was more speed related but the lack of an attempt at avoidance indicates that the boarder just wasn't aware of the skier.

@bar shaker, Love that video. it's her reaction afterwards that makes it.
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@DB, Those of us that skis in trees will be well aware of the advice not to look at the trees or else you will tend to ski towards them. Look at the gaps instead.

I think it applies similarly on piste as well. If you are looking directly at the person in front you are more likely to hit them. I try nowadays to look at the space I want to go to avoid someone when overtaking. Obviously you have to be aware of where the hazards are as with trees, but you don't want to look directly at them.

I think that explains why in the videos you have shown, the collisions all happened on wide pistes when there should be no excuse. I feel it also explains why people sometimes ski into a static group they are with when there should be no good reason to.
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Target fixation.....
Happens in vehicles too!!
Just poor observation skills thru lack of training
But who needs training when on holiday, it’s only snow!!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As Penry says, excessive speed nor lack of control were really major factors in those videos. To my untutored eye it seemed like one(or both) of two factors:
1. People assuming that the skier in front of them will be either out of their way in time or that they will behave in a predictable manner.
2. Lack of peripheral vision. I know we’ve had this discussion before, but I can’t help feeling that the increased use of goggles plays a significant part in this problem.
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snowornever wrote:
Target fixation.....
Happens in vehicles too!!
Just poor observation skills thru lack of training
But who needs training when on holiday, it’s only snow!!


Brother in law is a motorbike mechanic and gets a fair bit of work from this phenomenon, must hurt if on a motorbike.
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Same in rallying. See a tree or rock and you'll hit it. Always try and look through the bend or race line.
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In the woman with yellow pants video the boarder was remarkably restrained. I'd have called her a crazy bitch minimum and seriously contemplated riding off with one of her skis for some distance so she had time to reflect on her asshattery.

Knapton's testimony is frightening - if a guy can kill himself by smashing through 2 trees imagine what he could have done to innocent people on his path on the piste.
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DB wrote:
@rob@rar,
He/she obviously needed lessons I hope you got some business out of it. Toofy Grin

There's more ....


http://youtube.com/v/4GMx7e8vYeE


http://youtube.com/v/112bBO70AhE


http://youtube.com/v/1qn1WwKiGRM


Hah vid 1 is a perfect example of lack of self preservation stopping in a dumb spot in heavy traffic and then wiped out by what is possibly their own party member. Vid 2 cameraman is at least as resonsible - if you film your buddy closely from below and he isn't very good sooner or later he will hit you.
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Target fixation: That’s the reason I’m a rubbish tennis player. I can’t resist hitting the ball straight back to my opponent.
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Re Target fixation - it reminds me of a real quote from a car insurance report.
"The guy was all over the road. I had to swerve a number of times before I hit him."

Sometimes it's better to ski towards the "target" and then put in a turn to avoid him/her shortly before otherwise you could be constantly changing your line to match their behaviour which could be erratic.
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DB wrote:


Sometimes it's better to ski towards the "target" and then put in a turn to avoid him/her shortly before otherwise you could be constantly changing your line to match their behaviour which could be erratic.


I certainly do this when overtaking skiers who display no "body english" about where or when they are going to turn. I tend to aim for a point of intersection and then when they've suddenly heaved round a shoulder turn etc I'm ususally well clear. On the rare occasion they choose to eek out every last inch of the width of the piste its usually a simple matter to cut back inside them. (I should add when I'm on a piste I'm usually on the margin for the best snow and to avoid the meat missiles barrelling down the middle)
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Quote:

Hah vid 1 is a perfect example of lack of self preservation stopping in a dumb spot in heavy traffic and then wiped out by what is possibly their own party member


True but the following skier was far too close behind for their speed and ability. The fact that the bloke stopped there was no excuse for hitting him, especially at that speed.
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jedster wrote:
Quote:

Hah vid 1 is a perfect example of lack of self preservation stopping in a dumb spot in heavy traffic and then wiped out by what is possibly their own party member


True but the following skier was far too close behind for their speed and ability. The fact that the bloke stopped there was no excuse for hitting him, especially at that speed.


Yebbut I've seen that sort of thing happen all the time in group skiing situations - you tend to get closer to mates and family but the skill level isn't necessarily there. If you're aware someone's up your back bottom you don't stop suddenly in their path just like you're dumb to anchor on with a tailgater in fast moving traffic. Yes the uphill skier at fault but the stoppee still gets creamed.
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Am I alone in ‘signalling’ before a turn in some situations? Usually on crowded cat tracks I will do a rather exaggerated start to a pole plant - one arm extended way in front - before finally putting the turn in?
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