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Is this crash my fault?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@zikomo, - spot on!!

@PaulC1984, - I guess you have no time for snowboarders, those carving, kids, beginners or even the bloke moving to side of piste for a break. Sure if they want to avoid a collision they could/should look uphill before heading across the slope. But just because you are some skiing God with his groove on skiing predictably in your 'lane' doesn't remove your obligation to break your line and ski around them. F**rk next you will have everyone wearing indicators and wing mirrors. #entitled
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Blackblade wrote:
The skier who hit the OP clearly, at the last part of the collision, had become the uphill skier - and thus was not a blameless party.


I don't agree. At six seconds, which is a split second before impact, the OP is still the uphill skier.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@zikomo I can confirm, beyond all doubt, that is not the reason for this crash. I do not ski around with any perceived right to any space. I try to be as safe as possible and I have humility which is why Ive posted it here and accepted feedback.

The idea that you should always be able to avoid crashes is ridiculous to me. Some crashes are simply too quick to avoid. Ive only ever been in this one crash, and Ive rarely even had near misses, but I was never foolish enough to think that Id never be in a crash.

To me, your post just reads like a holier-than-thou ode to your own brilliance.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 27-02-18 11:09; edited 1 time in total
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Just a little observation... Spatial/situational awareness has been mentioned above, and is important. In flying and sailing the 'constant bearing rule' is often cited as being critical both in collisions and in avoiding them. Simply, if 2 moving bodies maintain the same relative bearing (he's in my 10 o'clock, still in my 10, still in, still ten o'clock, sill in my- crunch!) to each other, they WILL collide! SA in this sense means maintaining a scan, and clocking the angle and if it's changing. Do one run downhill viewing everyone in this light and you'll have the start of a useful tool in the bag.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Hurtle wrote:
I once got off a chairlift and there was a large - really large - flat area at the top, with just one person standing in the middle of it, admiring the view. I don't know if there was some kind of magnetic force at work, or what, but I skied (albeit gently) straight into him. Shocked Embarassed I've never been so embarrassed in my life.


It's a well-known effect called "object fixation", taught for example to pilots who land in fields with obstacles. Do not focus on the obstacle or you will hit it.
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If we are going down the route of naming your worst accident you can remember involving another skier, I will make an attempt. (I have been skiing for 23 years)

I have not been involved in any accident in which another skier was injured, and required medical treatment. I have collided with other skiers, mainly in my learning period of 2-3 weeks. Usually at slow pace, but sometimes the cause was Tom foolery with people you know. (in other words deliberate games of "nudges")

I remember learning in Val Thorens and Espace Killy where I often felt like I was the only person who could not ski on the piste and everyone else was overtaking me at enormous pace. This would often occur at the congestion points which were icy, and at the end of the day when you are tired.

I have had two or three accidents on my own which were potentially quite serious, but none of which I sought medical treatment.

1. One in December 1998 when I was going down a black diamond run in (probably Vail but it might have been Beaver Creek). The piste was empty, and a little icy. I was not wearing a helmet, as I did not in those days. I hit a steep icy patch, lost my balance, and fell on my back and my head whiplashed on the ice. I think I was unconscious, I do not know how long, as I woke up on my own as the piste was still empty. Felt sick for the rest of the day, and took it easy for the remainder of the day.

2. In the Noughties I banged the back of my head again going through "Haggis trap" in Glencoe for the first time. Some idiot had gone before me, and once I thought it was clear I headed off. When I got closer to the exit of "Haggis trap" I saw that the idiot had not cleared the exit and was still sitting in the path of the exit. Trying to avoid a collision I veered to the left, slipped and banged the back of my head again. No helmet again.

3. Again the the late noughties I did the same accident in "Haggis Trap" with a helmet and no other idiot present. Just me! I felt better wearing the helmet, but tend to avoid "Haggis Trap", steep ice, and any jumps these days.
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CallumDA wrote:
Some responses talk about "wanting to pass", "making the pass". I'd barely picked up much speed when I looked over. I was absolutely not expecting, or intending to pass. The two things I knew were that the other guy already had enough speed to overtake me and was already in front of me.

I assumed that the other guy would be well ahead of me when I looked over just two seconds later. I know next time I'm in the same situation I'll just slow down but we have to make split second decisions all the time out there and I hope the answer isn't always "slow down to be sure". Should we always slow down when someone passes us just in case they start traversing the piste sharply almost immediately after they pass?


I don't think the answer is always "slow down when someone is below you", I think it would be more accurate to say "travel at a speed which gives you time to react and avoid any unexpected actions downhill"

I also think once you'd noticed the guy, it's a good idea to maintain awareness of where he is/what he is doing. When you first looked he was on the other side of the piste, next time you look at him, you're making contact. Without getting in to whose fault it was (I think it's kind of blurred, especially after your other post mentioning when does the overtaker stop being the overtaker), if you had maintained awareness of where he was on the slope (to me it looks like you were roughly the same height for most of the clip, so downhill seems a moot point), you wouldn't have needed to take evasive action, either you would have been able to change speed to avoid him, or change lane. The same goes for him (and if anything he was even more guilty of not maintaining slope awareness - again not saying the crash was his fault)

I think the lesson is to just ski within limits that give you time to take appropriate action
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I haven't read all the responses, but its "impressive" that the only 2 guys on a huge, wife open piste, in broad daylight managed to crash into each other.

Certainly a contender for "Jerry of the Day"...
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PaulC1984 wrote:
... A few of you will have skied with me, and I don't pootle around, but one things for sure I like lane discipline.

To me that is a wide piste, you can easily splot it into 2/3 strips. The OP clearly kept the same distance from the edge of the piste, where as the other person cut across sharply. It's about time people learnt that whilst the fis code states the down hill skier has right of way, that the downhill skier should hold responsibility for their own actions that include:

A) skiing in a predictable manor
B) look up the sodding hill before changing direction or stopping.
...

Yes the downhill skier has an obligation to "behave in such a way that does not endanger ... others". But you can't translate that into requiring them to always ski in a predictable manner. People make mistakes / catch an edge / unbalance / avoid patches of ice or dirt / get tired etc. And even skiing "in a predictable manner" doesn't necessarily involve lane discipline - we've all seen skiers who find themselves on a slope that is a bit too steep for them, and know that they are likely to simply traverse completely from one side of the piste to the other, turn and repeat - until they suddenly put an extra turn in! Common sense says that if you are coming from above then always expect them to do the unexpected, and adapt your behaviour accordingly!
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@CallumDA, I actually do admire your honesty and humility in posting here. You seem to have. mostly, taken any feedback positively.

I do, however, believe you are at fault as you started off without checking, and then maintained your line and speed without regard to the other skier. I can see how it could happen, it looks to me like a lapse of concentration and awareness on that particular day which I am sure you have learnt from.

The rest of my comments were more general in nature and not in any way directed to you, or about you.

I do not think all crashes can be avoided and neither did I suggest that. I do believe, however, that is is possible (in pretty much all cases) to avoid wiping out another skier from above or the side.

Skiing at speed and choosing your corridor are fun things to do, but bring the responsibility of being aware of other slope users and adjusting speed and line as necessary in such a way that the can make any involuntary or voluntary movement without being wiped out.

I understand how you might feel a wee bit under attack here with the many criticisms and opinions that you were at fault. I guess it is inevitable, you did ask the question after all! I will put the "holier-than-thou ode to you own brilliance" comment down to that. I am sure neither if us intends any offence or malice to the other.

And well done again for have the courage to post this, it has generated a good debate.
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zikomo wrote:
@CallumDA, I actually do admire your honesty and humility in posting here. You seem to have. mostly, taken any feedback positively.

I do, however, believe you are at fault as you started off without checking, and then maintained your line and speed without regard to the other skier. I can see how it could happen, it looks to me like a lapse of concentration and awareness on that particular day which I am sure you have learnt from.

The rest of my comments were more general in nature and not in any way directed to you, or about you.

I do not think all crashes can be avoided and neither did I suggest that. I do believe, however, that is is possible (in pretty much all cases) to avoid wiping out another skier from above or the side.

Skiing at speed and choosing your corridor are fun things to do, but bring the responsibility of being aware of other slope users and adjusting speed and line as necessary in such a way that the can make any involuntary or voluntary movement without being wiped out.

I understand how you might feel a wee bit under attack here with the many criticisms and opinions that you were at fault. I guess it is inevitable, you did ask the question after all! I will put the "holier-than-thou ode to you own brilliance" comment down to that. I am sure neither if us intends any offence or malice to the other.

And well done again for have the courage to post this, it has generated a good debate.


Agreed wholeheartedly, as I said earlier, I don't think I'd have offered myself up to the forum like this.

I think the majority of us have had a skiing incident, not necessary a collision, where we were at least partly to blame.

Be honest with yourself, learn and move on.
Oh and someone mentioned snowboarders - it's just common sense to give them an extra wide berth on their heel side and pass them on their toe side if you can.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
abc wrote:
ecureuil wrote:
This can't be right. It is reasonable to expect skiers to check a 180 degree downhill arc of vision; but they don't have to check uphill, although more prudent skiers may do so. The other skier was initially downhill, so may not even have known the OP was approaching. The OP knows that the downhill skier is there, so has to be 100% responsible for avoiding a collision. .

No, it should be 180 degree in the direction of travel!

So if the skier is traversing across the piste, "uphill" is part of that 180 degree!

BTW, that also applies for skier carving big arcs.

I'm not convinced about this, so keen to hear others' views. Yes rule 3 refer to "skiers coming from behind", rather than from above, which might tend to support abc's interpretation, but this needs to be considered in the context of all skiing being generally downhill. Someone slaloming downhill will have their upper body and head pretty much facing the fall line all the time, even though their skis and direction of travel will zig-zag diagonally from side to side; I don't think they are expected to keep looking uphill on alternate zig-zags - their primary obligation is to avoid anyone who is below them. Similarly if I have caught someone up on a narrow slope, and am making a parallel traverse, above and slightly ahead of them, it is still my responsibility as the overtaking skier not to suddenly turn in front of them - even if at that point they are "behind" me; it doesn't suddenly behind their responsibility to avoid me!
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Just to introduce a different perspective - one that I am guilty off. I think there is sometimes a tendancy to want to maintain momentum. That is, someone has chosen their line, speed, etc and doesnt want to change. They may (giving benefit of the doubt) see the other skier but are hoping that the other skier changes their line so they don't have to. It's selfish and, as I say, I can be guilty of it.

Watching the video and imagining a birds eye view, I would guess both skiers have chosen their line (one going fairly straight down the right hand side and the other going diagonally across the piste) and want to maintain it. And then all too fast nothing changes and there's a collision. Yes the OP should have slowed down or cut left behind the other skier (but that could have resulted in a collision if the other skier had turned left). Yes the traversing skier should have had more spatial awareness and turned left. Both could have avoided the accident but were on their paths and didn't want to.

Again, I am guilty of this sometimes, and thanks to this thread will try not to be.

One other point - there is a difference between fault and responsibility - I'll agree with the consensus that the OP is the one mostly at fault but both skiers have a responsibility to avoid accidents where possible.

Don't beat yourself up over it. Well done for posting and prompting the discussion.

Now if only the other skier were to contribute to this discussion...
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
dozofoz wrote:
@zikomo, - spot on!!

@PaulC1984, - I guess you have no time for snowboarders, those carving, kids, beginners or even the bloke moving to side of piste for a break. Sure if they want to avoid a collision they could/should look uphill before heading across the slope. But just because you are some skiing God with his groove on skiing predictably in your 'lane' doesn't remove your obligation to break your line and ski around them. F**rk next you will have everyone wearing indicators and wing mirrors. #entitled


Wow, what a jolly happy person you are.

A lot of people here have been skiing with me, entitled, dangerous etc wouldn't be what I'd or anyone else would describe me as.

I've a lot of time for snowboarders, I've even said hello to one or two once, they have a blind side, easy to manage - don't ski one their blind side!

As for stopping on the side on the hill, move predictably to the side whilst checking up hill, not difficult at all.

Having a 5 yo who skis I'm well aware of how kids can be, but he is taught from day one to control his speed, be mindful of those around him and to ski predictably. Not a difficult concept for anyone to Manage - #Useyourbrains (since you like your hashtags). I'm also the first to stop any run to help others, not because it's what the code says, but because it's the right thing to do.

If you can't see the value of skiing in a predictable manner and being aware of those around you, I'd hate to see what you are like on a hill, or in fact behind the wheel of a car - using your wish for mirtors, on the road should we not drive predictably, check before moving across and be aware of those all around us? Do you find it acceptable to move all over the road without checking over your shoulder, or do you just close your eyes and hope for the best #BellEnd
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@PaulC1984, Out of order. No need to name call. BellEnd is particularly unpleasant, and uncalled for.

And looking at some of your previous posts I can see where at least some of the perception came from. Might be good to have a look yourself and see if you could maybe have been a bit more balanced.
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@zikomo, re read the post and tell me it's not balanced. Did I in anyway say the OP was not in part to blame.

Go and have a read of my other posts again too, all 4312, you will find most are light hearted, joking, or informative. Rarely am I ever serious and if I am I give my opinion as all are #entitled to do.

If @dozofoz, wants to start a mini attack at me personally in the previous post (which granted was rather weak) then you have to expect a reply.

I do love how people feel the need to get offended for others - are you related or is it just because @dozofoz, agreed with you....

Anyway, let's not get side tracked here, people including myself are making some rather valid points - notice how I gave my point of view but felt no need to attack others individually for their points of view even if I disagree, yep that's because they are #entitled to it.

Have a nice day
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@PaulC1984, OK. I did re-read your post, and stand by my comments. You are still out of order. And I suspect you know it.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

Just to introduce a different perspective - one that I am guilty off. I think there is sometimes a tendancy to want to maintain momentum. That is, someone has chosen their line, speed, etc and doesnt want to change. They may (giving benefit of the doubt) see the other skier but are hoping that the other skier changes their line so they don't have to.

This is a very dangerous perspective.
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@zikomo, wahoo the play ground continues.

Did you not read the bit where it says 50/50. I also asked you to read my other 4312 posts, not done that yet? excellent.

Nope, I know I'm definitely right - I'm #entitled remember, I'm never wrong rolling eyes

Anyways, I'm in Italy with gorgeous snow and sun. Id love to hang around but I'm feeling a little #entitled and fancy mowing down some kids, beginers and snowboarders before tea.

Catch ya laters.

Time to get back on topic now
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@PaulC1984, You are in Italy with gorgeous snow and sun? And using your time on rater pointless arguments and insults on here? At least I have the excuse of being in the office, miserable as first day back after 2 weeks in Switzerland and 5 weeks to go until the next trip. Think I would be enjoying the snow if I were you.

As I said, I have re-read your post. Your points about "lane discipline" and skiing in a predictable manner COULD be interpreted as I suggest. Which is why I stand by my comment. Maybe you could re-read your post here yourself? And apply a wee bit of self-awareness?

You did resort to rather unpleasant name calling. Which is out of order.

Anyway this is not really worth my time. So enjoy having whatever last word you are sure to feel the need to make. I won't be reading it.
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@zikomo, this was a sneering 'in personam' attack and imv completely unwarranted. It took me quite aback when I read it.
Quote:

I guess you have no time for snowboarders, those carving, kids, beginners or even the bloke moving to side of piste for a break. Sure if they want to avoid a collision they could/should look uphill before heading across the slope. But just because you are some skiing God with his groove on skiing predictably in your 'lane' doesn't remove your obligation to break your line and ski around them. F**rk next you will have everyone wearing indicators and wing mirrors. #entitled

I don't blame @PaulC1984 - who is a respected, polite and helpful forum member - for rising to it, or to you for fanning the flames in much the same tone used by dozofoz.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
zikomo wrote:
Anyway this is not really worth my time. So enjoy having whatever last word you are sure to feel the need to make. I won't be reading it.

The classic Laughing NehNeh Toofy Grin
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Must admit I don't support the 'lane' discipline' thing. Of course experienced skiers tend to ski turning down the fall line. It may be frustrating when others do not. But if you are in traffic and cannot avoid someone who lunges to the side, you should be skiing slower, frustrating though that may be. That said, I do tend to take into account the downhill skier's style. I'll be happy to pass closer to someone skiing in a smooth, flowing, confident style than someone who looks to be more of a novice.
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I almost forgot that last year I posted a video of an almost identical incident from the other persons perspective, this was snowboarder on snowboarder. As a surfer and snowboarder my most enjoyable manoeuvres come from traversing across the slop; ie, emulating a bottom turn then climbing and dropping across the face before performing a roundhouse cutback. I will regularly do this on an empty piste or with just a couple of individual skiers behind me because they should have plenty of space and time to avoid me. If a group is coming down I'll confine myself to the opposte half of the piste before they overtake.

Previous post reads; Close quarters situations can happen very quickly, even on an empty piste. This 30 second video show me having a near collision with another snowboarder, if the piste is quiet I will make wide S carves which leaves me crossing the piste fairly fast. In hindsight I should have cut short that turn when I first saw the other guy, but even reacting as soon as I saw him start to turn towards me was only just enough. I don't think he is aware of me until we are less than a metre apart even though I can "see his nose" a couple of seconds earlier.

edit. ps video starts at about my third set of turns.


http://youtube.com/v/DD0_zTQqg6Y

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=3034967&highlight=snowboarder+collision&sid=1f6a82cda6ce6e0854e2021bbb6cbe63#3034967
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@BoardieK, I am very wary of passing boarders blind side.
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@PaulC1984, ok so I projected onto you a particularly annoying type of skier who gets arsy if someone below them ruins their line. Maybe you are this maybe you are not. But that's cool I am just some anonymous dude on the Internet why take it personally? You projected that I am an unhappy bellend. Maybe I am maybe I am not.

Whether it applies to you or not your description of skiing in 'lanes' comes across as entitled and when challenged you got just a wee bit sensitive.

#stayclassy Very Happy
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YES 100% your fault. You were the uphill skier. You should have seen him coming across from the left and YOU should have been in enough control to change your line.
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You know it makes sense.
We all know that we cannot rely on others to ensure our safety, be they uphill of us, or downhill, that is why we mostly ski / board with an eye to what is happening around us... but sometimes bumps happen as it is all to easy to get distracted by the beauty around us.... "and that, officer, is how I accidentally rear ended your car".
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@CallumDA, I'll buck the trend a bit and say I'd place the majority of the blame on the other guy. Yes, rules is rules, upper skier should be able to avoid, you should have seen him coming etc. But this fellow was heading over to the side of the piste I'm sure - in fact just before the collision there is a glimpse of another skier off to the side, a buddy perhaps? If you're going to pile 3/4 of the way across the alpine equivalent of a motorway, surely it makes sense to check that nothing is coming first?
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Both skiers should of had more situational awareness. Turning the head to look around you even on empty slopes is necessary.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm always a bit more wary of anyone with a camera stuck on their helmet, or on the end of a stick (@BoardieK or @CallumDA Very Happy ), as there is a chance that they are more concerned with following a friend, or keeping their head pointing in the same direction, or making themselves look good, than skiing or boarding safely.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hurtle wrote:
@zikomo, this was a sneering 'in personam' attack and imv completely unwarranted. It took me quite aback when I read it.
Quote:

I guess you have no time for snowboarders, those carving, kids, beginners or even the bloke moving to side of piste for a break. Sure if they want to avoid a collision they could/should look uphill before heading across the slope. But just because you are some skiing God with his groove on skiing predictably in your 'lane' doesn't remove your obligation to break your line and ski around them. F**rk next you will have everyone wearing indicators and wing mirrors. #entitled

I don't blame @PaulC1984 - who is a respected, polite and helpful forum member - for rising to it, or to you for fanning the flames in much the same tone used by dozofoz.


Thankyou Toofy Grin

But please don't go tarnishing me with that well respected lark, I have low standards to up hold Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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@HandyHand, Seems a bit sad to compare skiing to motorways and keeping to your lane when the piste is so wonderfully wide and empty.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Penry wrote:
@HandyHand, Seems a bit sad to compare skiing to motorways and keeping to your lane when the piste is so wonderfully wide and empty.


'Motorway' as in 'big wide space with fast moving things on it'. As opposed to 'narrow-ass cat track'.
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Jeez, far too much debate, it is 100% the OPs fault.

Yes, the other guy contributed to it happening. Yes, if I was the other guy I'd have looked up, turned less, behaved differently etc. BUT, none of that removes the onus on the OP not to straight line into someone below who's skiing erratically.
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@gilo, Who skied into who ?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Sorry, deleted.
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jedster wrote:
Quote:

There are also times when accidents will occur where blame is not really attributable to anyone. It's just an accident.


Don't agree.
Clearly you can have incidents when several people made contributory errors and nobody was grossly at fault.
But beyond that, the whole principle of reducing "accidents" on the roads, at work, and yes when involved in sport involves going back to the contributory factors and trying to eliminate them. In skiing the vast majority of "it's just an accident" incidents ultimately result from people not leaving enough margin for error given the speed they were travelling at.


I respectfully disagree with you. Accidents which only involve human factors are always people-led. But don't forget that the thing we are skiing on is natural. It comes from the sky. It cannot be controlled or monitored. And if you're skiing a nice piste and you suddenly hit an ice patch mid-turn which you didn't see, and your skis come out underneath you... that's just an accident. You can't blame that on somebody. Or any other example of nature-led occurrences.
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dogwatch wrote:
Blackblade wrote:
The skier who hit the OP clearly, at the last part of the collision, had become the uphill skier - and thus was not a blameless party.


I don't agree. At six seconds, which is a split second before impact, the OP is still the uphill skier.


Oxymoron. Six seconds is clearly NOT a split second which is axiomatically less than one second.

More importantly, and being less facetious, six seconds is a long distance when you are travelling at 30mph - 80 metres to be precise. If we skied/rode based on what was happening six seconds ago given that distance travelled then we'd all be sking into each other and the scenery all the time.
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