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Differing Instructor Advice - Facing Down The Mountain

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I think that image illustrates the point - throughout the turn she is exhibiting counter. Check her chest v. diriction of outer ski.

Frame 2 shows her trying to get her chest pointing inside the turn (anti-clockwise counter) ahead to help bring the outer ski around aggressively and by Frame 6 she is turing chest down slope agains (clockwise) to set up next turn.

If I'm reading rjs correctly he isn't suggesting a static upper body always perpendicular to fall line.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
A simple way to explain this is that when skiing the chest/upper body should typically follow the line of momentum of the skier, not necessarily the fall line.

For example, in a slalom the shoulders are mainly perpendicular to the fall line and in a downhill race perpendicular to the skis...
Or say when a recreational skier is skiing a steep gully the shoulders should face down the hill (fall line) as the this is where you want your body to go in the same way as on an easy green run the shoulders will be perpendicular to the skis.

@karin has it right..
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:


A simple way to explain this is that when skiing the chest/upper body should typically follow the line of momentum of the skier, not necessarily the fall line.

For example, in a slalom the shoulders are mainly perpendicular to the fall line and in a downhill race perpendicular to the skis...
Or say when a recreational skier is skiing a steep gully the shoulders should face down the hill (fall line) as the this is where you want your body to go in the same way as on an easy green run the shoulders will be perpendicular to the skis.

@karin has it right..


Very clear. Even better than karin's good explanation!
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jedster wrote:
This is another good illustration of what I mean I think:

It is a good illustration of what happens if you get things wrong, followed by a recovery from that. It isn't an example of what should be done.

She doesn't separate correctly at the waist in the first frame, when she starts to angulate/incline she transfers pressure to the inside ski which hooks up and tracks to the inside of the turn. This throws her off balance and her upper body moves around.

Quote:
I don't claim to be a ski coach but I generally find it more persuasive if people address the point being made rather than avoid the point with a claim to authority.

I described the general ideas that we teach as well as specific differences between race and recreational techniques, you just keep telling me that I'm wrong.

skimottaret wrote:
A simple way to explain this is that when skiing the chest/upper body should typically follow the line of momentum of the skier, not necessarily the fall line.

For example, in a slalom the shoulders are mainly perpendicular to the fall line and in a downhill race perpendicular to the skis...

You turn in a Downhill too. I have a strong memory of looking back up at the Choucas piste in Meribel after it had been used for DH warmup, everyone had been skiing arc-to-arc on 50m skis using the whole width of the piste. The technique is just the same as for SL and GS, we don't tell trainees to turn their shoulders like in the long turn video above.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jedster wrote:
Quote:


A simple way to explain this is that when skiing the chest/upper body should typically follow the line of momentum of the skier, not necessarily the fall line.

For example, in a slalom the shoulders are mainly perpendicular to the fall line and in a downhill race perpendicular to the skis...
Or say when a recreational skier is skiing a steep gully the shoulders should face down the hill (fall line) as the this is where you want your body to go in the same way as on an easy green run the shoulders will be perpendicular to the skis.

@karin has it right..


Very clear. Even better than karin's good explanation!


+1 that works for me too. In short, fall line turns on steeps I just look straight down and keep my chest pointing ahead with the skis turning underneath with as much separation as I can achieve. In long radius turns I like to follow the path of the skis much more for a nice flowing ride.
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Quote:

I described the general ideas that we teach as well as specific differences between race and recreational techniques, you just keep telling me that I'm wrong.


The only thing I disagreed with you about is whether your shoulders should face down the fall line throughout long turns. If you ever come across a photo sequence showing a top skier doing that I would love to see it. But otherwise let's leave it here shall we? I'm not trying to wind you up.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Clearly the real answer is, “it depends” and one’s ability to discern and implement this appropriately is a measure of one’s skills.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Hey, Snowheads, been a while.

I'll jump in the mix to add the "why" of how much counter you do or don't use. Counter is the state of the pelvis facing to the outside of the turn, outside the direction the skis are pointing. A small amount of counter is useful in most turns, because it serves to pronate the outside foot, which directs pressure to the big toe side of the foot, exactly where you want it to strongly engage the inside edge of the ski.

Counter also makes it easier to angulate more strongly, as it also allows forward flexion at the waist to create angulation, instead of being required to tip sideways at the waist. We have much more range of motion flexing forward at the waist than we do tipping sideways. The more angulation required in a turn, the more counter is called for.

Finally, it depends on whether you want to pivot the start of your turn, or start your turn with no pivot, sometimes referred to as a "clean" initiation. The strategy to keep your upper body facing down the falline is a strategy to execute a pivoted turn start, because the large amount of torque that position creates in the waist during the transition between turns acts to auto pivot the skis into alignment with the downhill facing upper body the moment their edges are disengaged from the previous turn.

If you don't want that pivoting to happen, release any counter that was present at the end of the old turn, and allow the upper body to come back into directional alignment with the skis as you go through the transition. Doing that removes the torque in the waist and allows the skis to more easily enter the new turn pivot free.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@FastMan, hey, nice to see you back, hope all is well! snowHead
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I was told 3 gems by a kiwi instructor in Breckenridge when I first started skiing 25 years ago and I still quote them to this day.

If it's going pear shaped a) face down the hill, b) tits up, c)lean forward.
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The kiwi accent is very thick - are you sure she didn't say

Quote:
If it's going tits up a) face down the hill, b) pear shaped, c)lean forward.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
red 27 wrote:
The kiwi accent is very thick - are you sure she didn't say

Quote:
If it's going tits up a) face down the hill, b) pear shaped, c)lean forward.


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@FastMan,
Quote:


@FastMan, hey, nice to see you back, hope all is well!


+1

As ever you drop in with a single paragraph that helps clarify things!
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