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Airbag types

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@PaulC1984, oh ok, I see. Thanks. Do you happen to know anywhere that states the dimensions of the Ortovox packs as I can't seem to see them?
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@Scarlet, sadly I can't see that info either. With last year's freerider packs they gave back lengths.

Like last year they do a standard back length and an S model which is for all the short back bottom women out there. Only problem with that is in the freerider they drop from a 22l to a 20l usable volume.

Tim at snowshepherd is the bees knees when it comes to Ortovox packs, he is bound to know for sure
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@PaulC1984, Tim doesn't have the measurements listed either. Also, the short bags still need to be able to fit a standard shove/probe, which is another reason I'm interested in the sizes. I think 20L would be big enough, especially if, as your research with @dp suggests, Ortovox produce a "large" 20L Toofy Grin Which model is yours?
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I had the 24l last year but most of the volume was taken up by the MASS unit (canister and 2 bag)

This year the airbag unit inside is tiny - it's literally the canister and 1 bag so a lot more usable volume which is why I guess they've dropped from a 22l to 20l in the women's and a 24 to a 22l in the men's.

Or I could be totally wrong of course
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Scarlet wrote:
@PaulC1984, well at least I don't have to contend with one of those concerns.


It has to be said that whilst I don't have direct experience of the alternative anatomy... the wedgie strap on my bag is quite narrow and I think it would probably still cause mild discomfort to the lady bits.
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@Scarlet, certainly when myself and Paul compared bags at Birthday Bash... I would not have said there was much less space in his 24L Ortovox than in my 32L Scott. So yes, 'big' 24L .

But also I suppose not only is there the issue of manufacturers including/excluding the airbag and firing unit... there is also the fact that different airbags and firing units are different sizes too.
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The Ortovox MASS units are tiny. There is no way that the bottle and bag would take up 2 litres.

I carry my shovel, probe, 2 goggles in hard cases, 1 sunglasses in hard case, cable lock, light fleece, thicker fleece, spare gloves, woolly hat and some choc bars. There is plenty of room left and that's in a bag rated at 22 litres.
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@bar shaker,

I'm referring to last year's MASS vs this year's. There is a large size difference which is great
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PaulC1984 wrote:
@bar shaker,

I'm referring to last year's MASS vs this year's. There is a large size difference which is great


I was agreeing with you Paul.
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dp wrote:
Can't think of a good reason not to have the wedgie strap...

The theory is your airbag inflates and wants to go towards the top. Your body is heavy and wants to go towards the bottom. So you'll end up with the dorsal strap around your neck which won't be very nice.


Not strictly accurate - airbags don't help you 'float' up due to buoyancy, rather by inverse segregation/particle sorting (i.e. bigger bits - by volume - stay on the top): https://www.upmove-mtb.eu/uploads/produkte_download/315_1005_infosairbags2016.pdf

My understanding is that the leg strap is primarily their just to help keep the pack attached to the body, but it may to some degree also stop it riding up around your throat (personally not particularly convinced it would do much to to help there in a slide of much size/power, but as you say it can't hurt!)
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@bar shaker, Ah my apologies

Yes very impressed how small the new unit is! Happy
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The vibration of the snow, as it slides, causes it to act like a liquid. Buoyant content will float to the top.

I have always wondered why the canisters are not filled with oxygen. If you were caught in a terrain trap, it could possibly sustain you for longer.
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bar shaker wrote:
The vibration of the snow, as it slides, causes it to act like a liquid. Buoyant content will float to the top.


Sorry, but that's just not the case. Bouyancy has nothing to do with it; it's all about particle size. Another explanation: http://www.snowbigdeal.com/avalanche-safety-gear/avalanche-airbags/how-avalanche-airbags-work.html

BCA on how their packs work (https://backcountryaccess.com/how-effective-are-avalanche-airbags/):

Quote:
BCA Float packs work because of a phenomenon known as “inverse segregation.” This simply means larger “particles” (that’s you in an avalanche, with a Float pack’s 150L airbag inflated) tend to rise to the surface when a bunch of particles of different sizes are shaken together (that’s an avalanche with a ton of snow granulated and flowing down the mountain).


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 4-07-17 20:08; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
clarky999 wrote:
dp wrote:
Can't think of a good reason not to have the wedgie strap...

The theory is your airbag inflates and wants to go towards the top. Your body is heavy and wants to go towards the bottom. So you'll end up with the dorsal strap around your neck which won't be very nice.


Not strictly accurate - airbags don't help you 'float' up due to buoyancy, rather by inverse segregation/particle sorting (i.e. bigger bits - by volume - stay on the top): https://www.upmove-mtb.eu/uploads/produkte_download/315_1005_infosairbags2016.pdf

My understanding is that the leg strap is primarily their just to help keep the pack attached to the body, but it may to some degree also stop it riding up around your throat (personally not particularly convinced it would do much to to help there in a slide of much size/power, but as you say it can't hurt!)


I was with a guide who was taken in a "small" slide and couldn't reach his handle due to the movement of the pack, sternum pack not done up, no leg strap. Partially buried so OK, but he was fully tucked in the next day. Swiss, IFGMA, 40's. Volkl Mantra smashed up on the rocks ...
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mishmash wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
dp wrote:
Can't think of a good reason not to have the wedgie strap...

The theory is your airbag inflates and wants to go towards the top. Your body is heavy and wants to go towards the bottom. So you'll end up with the dorsal strap around your neck which won't be very nice.


Not strictly accurate - airbags don't help you 'float' up due to buoyancy, rather by inverse segregation/particle sorting (i.e. bigger bits - by volume - stay on the top): https://www.upmove-mtb.eu/uploads/produkte_download/315_1005_infosairbags2016.pdf

My understanding is that the leg strap is primarily their just to help keep the pack attached to the body, but it may to some degree also stop it riding up around your throat (personally not particularly convinced it would do much to to help there in a slide of much size/power, but as you say it can't hurt!)


I was with a guide who was taken in a "small" slide and couldn't reach his handle due to the movement of the pack, sternum pack not done up, no leg strap. Partially buried so OK, but he was fully tucked in the next day. Swiss, IFGMA, 40's. Volkl Mantra smashed up on the rocks ...


Ah ok, I hadn't thought of keeping it in place to keep the handle in reach. I can see how that might work. I was more thinking that the power of a slide is enough to force the pack up/leg strap to loosen (when inflated) anyway, but as long as it remains attached it should still serve its purpose.

Also, *there (my own post Embarassed)
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 Poster: A snowHead
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plus i have read some documented fatalities where no leg strap has resulted in strangulation by the sternum strap . would have to go look for source though .

Long and short of it is - as in skydiving - practice practice practice your emergency drills and handle pulls if you are going to use the equipment. So buy a bag that lets you do that easily - Alpride. Avabag, BCA but not ABS...
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@mishmash, Indeed - regards Ortovox - Their Ascent range has a leg strap but thin waist band, the free rider range has a thick waist band (aka corset for me!) but no leg strap, so I assume there is something in the waist band that determines the need / lack of need for a leg strap.

regards testing with the Avabag, here is a nice little video:


http://youtube.com/v/pO3j91Vxa-Q
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In here https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://backcountrymaven.squarespace.com/storage/post-images/caj_vol104_rmr_casestudy.pdf&chrome=true

in the conclusion - the strangulation and the waist belt jamming movement of the arms at the arm pit .

From this old thread of 2014 http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2550973

which includes the classic "crotch strap" video: !!!



http://youtube.com/v/DssGMIiH0Tg
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PaulC1984 wrote:
@mishmash, Indeed - regards Ortovox - Their Ascent range has a leg strap but thin waist band, the free rider range has a thick waist band (aka corset for me!) but no leg strap, so I assume there is something in the waist band that determines the need / lack of need for a leg strap.

regards testing with the Avabag, here is a nice little video:


http://youtube.com/v/pO3j91Vxa-Q


Both def have a crotch strap - look in the little pocket on the waist band and you may find it there.
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I have seem a surprising number of people with brand new avalanche back packs from which they have actually chopped the harness fastenings. I suppose I thought they were insane - it seems like someone deliberately chopping straps off their climbing harness. Perhaps their bags aren't for what I think they are for.
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mishmash wrote:
PaulC1984 wrote:
@mishmash, Indeed - regards Ortovox - Their Ascent range has a leg strap but thin waist band, the free rider range has a thick waist band (aka corset for me!) but no leg strap, so I assume there is something in the waist band that determines the need / lack of need for a leg strap.

regards testing with the Avabag, here is a nice little video:


http://youtube.com/v/pO3j91Vxa-Q


Both def have a crotch strap - look in the little pocket on the waist band and you may find it there.


Ill have a look when I get my new Avabag - My older model ferried certainly didn't, but perhaps the newer model does. - Thanks for the heads up Happy
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You can practice easily with the ABS system. Either attach a discharged handle for this, or just lock it down with the safety strap and practice grabbing it. It's the grab that needs to be instinctive, not whether you pull it with 2lbs force or 3lbs. In a real slide you will be piulling it much harder.
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@Scarpa, this is indeed true.

Just need to simulate panic.... perhas the wife chasing you round with a loaded gun.... Laughing
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The most common mod on Airbag packs is to the crotch strap, particularly when heli-skiing, where the constant taking on and off, makes the threading of the crotch strap an inconvenience. The favorite mod is a carabiner on end of the strap which makes it easy to clip on if you forget to thread it. I tried a quick release military retention strap on mine which works well.

Arcteryx are the first manufacturer to think it through properly with their ice screw clip type connection for the crotch strap.
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@Scarpa, I agree... people say "you need to get used to how hard to pull it"...

Option 2... pull it as hard as you can... you probably will anyway!
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dp wrote:
@Scarpa, I agree... people say "you need to get used to how hard to pull it"...

Option 2... pull it as hard as you can... you probably will anyway!


As long as you got the handle ready first wink
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@adithorp, saved myself £40 though Very Happy
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dp wrote:
@adithorp, saved myself £40 though Very Happy
Which you blew by being clumsy on the terrace at the K&F. Airbag karma - its all evens out.
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
dp wrote:
@adithorp, saved myself £40 though Very Happy
Which you blew by being clumsy on the terrace at the K&F. Airbag karma - its all evens out.


Wish I'd been there... I'd just skied away from the lift station in Gressoney when the accidental inflation happened there. Maybe I'm just unlucky Sad
Still, being subject to dp's adrenalin fueled jibbering at lunch after the Livigno incident was funny. Especially with the mime of trying to pull the (zipped away) handle. Laughing
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@adithorp, Not just you, I too missed both embarrassments by a couple of minutes . Doesn't mean I'll let either of the parties involved live it down though NehNeh
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Scarlet wrote:
@adithorp, Not just you, I too missed both embarrassments by a couple of minutes . Doesn't mean I'll let either of the parties involved live it down though NehNeh


Did that need saying?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
dp wrote:
@adithorp, saved myself £40 though Very Happy
Which you blew by being clumsy on the terrace at the K&F. Airbag karma - its all evens out.


They say you're meant to test your airbag out once a season right? That's it done for this year Very Happy

adithorp wrote:

Still, being subject to dp's adrenalin fueled jibbering at lunch after the Livigno incident was funny. Especially with the mime of trying to pull the (zipped away) handle. Laughing


Adrenalin fuelled jibbering followed by prolonged eerie silence and 'thousand yard stare' into the hills. The moment where the blood stopped rushing and my brain went "holy f**k"
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I did start having a look myself at the Ortovox Freerider range using their website which recommended the Freerider 20S being appropriate as i'm also short at 5'6. Their website has a video which confirms that the 20L listed is actual usable space and shows how you can pack a shovel/probe etc in a seperate compartment.

I searched online and came across a website which lists all of the various dimensions. The 20s is 29x52x18cm so sounds similar to your current bag size. The site below shows the Ortovox range under the photos.

https://www.snowsafe.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=53&products_id=858
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@jkchops, nice find. I think @PaulC1984 posted a link a few weeks ago of Ortovox bags on sale. Not sure if they still are...
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@jkchops, sorry, looks like they've sold out of the Ortovox, but the Dakine one is on sale: https://www.freezeproshop.com/dakine-signal-abs-25l-avalanche-backpack/colour:124301/path[menu]:ski-avalanche-safety/path[offset]:7
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Scarlet wrote:
[b]They used to be way out of my budget, but the price has been coming down and I've regularly seen second hand ones for <£300 which makes having one less of a massive expense.


I just picked up a brand new Scott Alpride 20 for £ 320 from skibarn. It the 2014 model but a bargain at the price.

PS It was the last one that they had in stock rolling eyes rolling eyes
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If anyone is still looking, I'll be selling my ABS Vario with 15 and 25ltr Dakine zip ons and carbon cartridge/handle for £300, with a spare carbon cartridge/handle for an extra £75.
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They just delivered a Mammut Ultralight bag from your Snowy Shepherd buddy to my flat and snowless place. Here you go:
[/img]
Summary
  • It feels like a long-back version of a shovel pack, with a bit more depth. A fat version of the DaKine heli or similar.
  • The airbag's in the bit at the top; the rest of the pack is for the cylinder plus shovel/ probe and whatever.
  • Compression straps are top and bottom (so not in the bit where I probably want them), but there are other loops there so it should be pretty flexible.
  • The crotch strap anchor point isn't particularly beefy. If I use a krab on it, it'll need to be a toy one or it'd be overkill.
  • I'd not need to remove this to sit in a helicopter.
  • I'm not sure I see the point of the "test" thing. You pull the handle, it goes "click".

On the OP... well this has not of course been tested, but...
  • Type This is cylinder based. That's a slight nuisance for the USA, but I don't like big heavy bags. The cylinders are Nitrogen which is cheap, I could probably refill it, but I doubt I'll bother.
  • Size As above. It doesn't get any better this season.
  • Capacity Claimed at 20L which I believe is net not gross. It's a bit baggier than the DaKine heli and I'd say that if you wait a year or two they'll probably produce something skinnier still, because the mechanism is really very compact. You could look at the "waistcoat" air bags if this is too big. I suspect I won't mind it, but I need snow to know.
  • Price Wait another year and they'll be cheaper still. Bankers have been riding with them for years. It depends where your own risk/benefit calculation leads you. The cost premium for these is about... £400 extra for the airbag gubbins and all. I suppose that will drop, maybe by half, if you wait long enough. I suspect this may change quickly now the technology is mature.
  • Travel Fine on Ryan air, fine everywhere except the USA, until they fix it. It may be possible to rent cylinders in the US.


I'm not sure what the grey plastic D-ring on the lower compression/ ski carry strap is for. Maybe it's some skier deviant thing.
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Most airbag types around Chamonix that I see don't ski off piste and are grossly overpaid.
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philwig wrote:
I'm not sure what the grey plastic D-ring on the lower compression/ ski carry strap is for. Maybe it's some skier deviant thing.

Looking at pictures of the pack, I think the only function is to stop the strap of the diagonal ski carry strap from being pulled back in to the pack and being impossible to get out again.

Most packs have a either a retraction strap/cable (to pull the carry strap back into the pack), or alternatively a stuff pocket. But since this is an ultralite pack, either of those options would probably weigh more than a plastic D ring.
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