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Glacier Retreat & Local climate - can we help?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@clarky999, also how many days/nights of sub zero temps do you get over the summer?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

Skiing is associated, rightly, with a large carbon footprint


Relative to what?

F1? Football? Luxury yachting? Sea cargo of Kenyan green beans?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Game of Snows,
Quote:
What i fear is that summer skiing will continue to slowly wither and therefore no resort will invest against a declining revenue trend
It always was a fringe activity. Honestly there are better things to do in the mountains in summer than slide around on a limited set of completely artificial pistes. Sorry to say this but I think it's just a question of a few years before we see the end of summer skiing in the Alps.
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Quote:

there are better things to do in the mountains in summer than slide around on a limited set of completely artificial pistes


This.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
https://www.zellamsee-kaprun.com/en/events/grass-ski-wc
could be the future Toofy Grin
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I don't think I am old enough to have a true historical perspective but I tend to agree with both Steilhang and UANN. 20 years ago Tignes was open 365 days a year for skiing and was marketed as such. Then it was 12 months and now it is 11 months with some judicious selection of dates (eg opening 30 Sep). I think STGM is now contracted to operat lifts for 36 weeks now. Clearly this is not a money maker, so winter skiing is subsidising the summer just for a marketing tag line. Additionally, unless you were race training or on a course it really was an activity for a morning in the summer. All the professional racers now seem to go to the southern hemisphere for decent length runs and decent snow. So now it is down to a few die hards or for those who get a lucky break when on an early summer holiday. This is pretty much the thinking of STGM who would rather run the lifts into early June and then come back in October (pedestrians aside) but La Mairie still seems to want its tag line as an almost USP

Clearly the retreat of the glacier is happening, some of this will be due to human induced climate change the rest is
down to natural shrinkage of the glaciers since the last ice age. 30000 years or so ago the glaciers extended to Lyon from the Tarentaise (I cannot find the actual timings on the net - it was an exhibition in Tignes so I may be 10000 years out) so is a lot of the change is a natural extension of this change in global climate. I would contend that nobody's head is big enough to work out what is 'our' share despite a lot of vested interests saying otherwise. I will offer only one supporting thread to this- we do not understand the sun, what it has done and what it is going to do next.

I would advocate that we should reduce emissions to counteract the amount of stuff we pump into the air, here I am with science rather than advocating wearing hair cloth.

For some a ski holiday is relatively carbon intensive, though generally from the UK flights are shorter than a quick trip to the sun. Personally in a season of 5 months my car does 2600km and I travel up lifts driven by hydro electric power so my carbon debt is not high (especially when compared to my career Shocked but that was on behalf of HM!)

A long way of saying - let the glaciers go.
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@boabski, I see a rosy future for orthopedic surgeons if that's the case Shocked
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@chocksaway,
Quote:
some of this will be due to human induced climate change the rest is down to natural shrinkage of the glaciers since the last ice age
undoubtedly true. But the worrying thing is the rate of change, not just of the alpine glaciers but of ice coverage around the world in general. Probably the most worrying aspect is the way the Siberian permafrost is changing, with the consequence that vast amounts of methane currently locked up under the frost are set to release in one enormous burp... bad news if and when it happens.
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ice will melt quicker the smaller it gets, so it's expected the glaciers will melt faster the smaller they get, the rate of change will get faster.

If we've helped it along, then that's unfortunate.

What we need is the sun to cool down a few degrees, anyone know where the thermostat is
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Some positive news -

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/wind-solar-water-power-countries-entirely-powered-2050-renewable-energy-climate-change-fossil-fuels-a7908821.html
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On a ski forum there is one thing for sure this century, the topic of climate change will run and run.

How long I wonder until the first big interconnect goes bust?
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Startling photos of La Muzelle 3465m from a couple of days ago and August 1967.

https://flic.kr/p/XP119M

It's usually skied about once each winter by some mad locals.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roche_de_la_Muzelle

Our skiable glacier has struggled this summer being closed regularly for repair work. Snow cannons being installed up there to start running early October.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I often wonder if mass scale solar farms would help by reflecting the sun light and produce clean energy at same time?
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
We are at the end of the last Ice Age

Just imagine Your Bath filled with Water & when you release the plug the water does not appear drain away very fast but as the water lowers in the bath it appears to speed up & drain away very fast.

We are at that stage now where we are witnessing the last few drops (glaciers) disappearing before our very eyes.

European Glaciers are likely to be all gone within 10years (except some it Switzerland maybe a bit longer)
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:

We are at the end of the last Ice Age


Not really, no. Ice ages come and go in relation to cycles in the planets orbit at around 15-17,000 years or so. The last warming peak from the last cycle was around 4000-4500BCE which should mean that we are still in a cooling phase and that was broadly on track until around the 1800's to 1900's.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

Not really, no. Ice ages come and go in relation to cycles in the planets orbit at around 15-17,000 years or so. The last warming peak from the last cycle was around 4000-4500BCE which should mean that we are still in a cooling phase and that was broadly on track until around the 1800's to 1900's.


Really? It must be nice to have such a simple outlook on things.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Are the Swiss landslides linked to melting permafrost?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@davidof, just watched a report on this. They think it may be connected to the fact that melt water permeated the mountain and then froze, so yes in a sense it's related to permafrost. Still eight people missing I think.
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Thanks for the information. There have been quite a few big landslides over recent years. The Drus pillar collapse, Granier slide near Chambery (the 1250 slide on the mountain flowed for km and killed thousands).
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There is a glacier in alaska called Mendenhall, it is currently retreating like the alpine glaciers. The photo on the link shows that beneath the retreating glacier there are tree stumps, from fairly well established trees by the look of it. Mendenhall sits at a height of around 1500 meters, trees can grow well around that height, so the only change can be temperature.

I would say that we are well off the current temperature to allow trees to re grow at that height so how long ago did that tree grow and why was it so warm then?

https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/mendenhall-glacier-tree-stumps1.jpg
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Continental drift................among other things
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https://www.thelocal.it/20170831/drone-research-over-alps-confirms-depleted-water-resources

Seems relevant.
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!

How does your glacier flow? from Brian Anderson
https://vimeo.com/133626869

Glaciers flow.

I'd suggest the reduction in size is as much to so with lack of snowy precipitation at altitude to keep producing ice, than melt on it's own. Obviously part of that is temperature but precipitation rates must also have changed ? If the amount of ice being formed at the top is reduced the glacier has to reduce in size.
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Watch Cowspiracy, on Netflix. Shocking cover up from leading environmentalists about the impact of meat and dairy production towards global warming. If you want to save the planet, just stop (or cut down) eating meat and dairy. Drive your SUV all you want if you eat just one less burger.
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@langball, this is definitely true.
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@langball, I've got a vegan mate who was giving me the hard sell based on the environment argument. The case against beef is particularly compelling and we are cutting down. Did have some beef brisket last night as it was already in the freezer!! Lamb isn't much better than beef, pork is halfway house, chicken not so bad. But with the number of burger joints on the High Street these days I'm not sure if the public is in tune. I think like anything else it takes time. There are far more veggies around than there ever was but it will maybe be 30/40 years until they are outstripping the meat eaters. Think we need to work at all fronts.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
That documentary will blow your mind. Worst part is the media black out....so everyone focuses on CO2 emissions, when it's almost an irrelevant factor vis a vis the destruction caused thru meat and dairy. Water, land, energy, pollution issues are on a completely unsustainable level, and then there's animal cruelty / ocean depletion.

Have a vegan mate too, ex oil trader funnily enough. He's giving away his leather biking gear etc to charity. This is extreme, but we can all cut down, learn to grow more food etc.
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Tignes glacier is "almost finished" according to experts



"even if it snows early September the number of crevasses and holes will make opening the ski area difficult"

-- we'll see, if it snows enough I'm sure they'll manage to reopen.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.

Came across this for the Rhone Alps. Not sure what it all boils down to.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 1-09-17 19:24; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Methane is one of the greatest 'greenhouse gases' and three stomachs produce a lot of it...............



mind you so does the Antarctic and the Siberian Tundra.........
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The Alpine glaciers are too far gone and unsavable.

It's over.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
To be fair. The loss of summer skiing isn't really the biggest hardship facing the human race due to climate change.
Flying is the worst way to travel and eating beef and diary products is about the worst thing for climate change, I am led to believe.

Ultimately, people are causing global warming and the best solution is reducing the number of people on the planet. The most important thing by!and can do to reduce climate change is to reduce population growth by having equal women's rights across the globe. Good luck with that one....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@davidof, They did (but not all of it to be fair).
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Done my bit

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children
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chocksaway wrote:
@davidof, They did (but not all of it to be fair).


My quote was from the FIS experts.

I was just looking at the webcam. There are quite a few people up there this AM. It looks hard and the return to one of the drags looks a bit dry too. Until they get significant snow it looks like a place for the hardcore skiers but open it is. Still it looks much better than it did in August.
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Mike Pow wrote:
Done my bit

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children


ok so each European emits 7 tonnes of CO2, I'm not sure how bringing millions of people from the third world (where they probably emit a fraction of that) to Europe is a good idea - but the Green party thinks it is.
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Not sure I am getting that. Less "men", less "man made" global warming. Duh, never thought of that. And yes I get they are "just saying..." but really the birth rate of the highest CO2 producers is relatively benign.

Equally asking people not to use planes and cars. It just isn't going to happen. You can discourage it to some extent and sure maybe that message could be made clearer. But I think offsetting and going electric offers up more hope.

Stop eating meet. Sure get the message out there. But it will take time to change. Beef is the worse but again I think you are looking at reductions rather than a mass immediate shift.
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This topic does elicite some nutter responsed in my book but scarily well liked. One such example:

Quote:
Don't have any children. They're going to go through a nightmare.

Anyone under the age of 40 today will experience terrifying, off-the-scale planetary heating. But these are people already born. Voluntarily to bring a new baby into this world is an act of cruelty. You don't have to do it. They will live in a world in which the planet begins to burn. But when warming becomes runaway, heating soars and temperatures are 6 degrees higher than pre-industrial - and they're already over one degree higher, people will burn up. Or commit suicide.

The planet is noticably on the verge of runaway warming. The arctic is mush and the atmosphere is polluted with CO2. The oceans are acidified and coral reefs bleached. There are increasingly massive out of control forest fires in Australia, Greece, America, Canada, to name but a few countries which are experiencing these terrifying events. There is drought all over the place, causing famine.

The planet is on the verge. And this article is, as most articles are, disingenously suggesting that humans can survive this. Life on earth will not survive this. The planet will eventually become a ball of flame in the sky, like Venue.

This article is misinformation. People should not bring new children into the world.

That is not to belittle the issues or even to suggest that things could get quite nasty or difficult for my childrens generation (I have two aged 12 and 10). I don't rule out the possibilities but neither do I hold a sense of doom that this guy does not. For a start and as a very rapid counter - it's impossible to know exactly how the earth is reacting or how much can be done. how quickly. Suggesting "people will burn up" is a) OTT and b) doesn't help.
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Layne wrote:

That is not to belittle the issues or even to suggest that things could get quite nasty or difficult for my childrens generation (I have two aged 12 and 10). I don't rule out the possibilities but neither do I hold a sense of doom that this guy does not. For a start and as a very rapid counter - it's impossible to know exactly how the earth is reacting or how much can be done. how quickly. Suggesting "people will burn up" is a) OTT and b) doesn't help.


We're only putting back into the atmosphere a fraction of what has been extracted by plant life over the last 500 million years so we are not going to end up like Venus. The earth has been desert and iceball in the past.
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davidof wrote:
[I'm not sure how bringing millions of people from the third world (where they probably emit a fraction of that) to Europe is a good idea - but the Green party thinks it is.

Do the Greens want to bring them or just expect that they will come anyway ? It won't need to get much hotter for the Sahel and Middle East to be uninhabitable.

I have read a suggestion that there isn't enough water available even now to rebuild Syria.
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