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Ice, hot bath or both?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Not sure what's considered best these days.
To me it's always been ice for immediate injury, pain, swelling etc; heat for post acute phase, stiffness, general tired muscles etc. Never had to deal with anything more long-haul before.
So, with a slowly-healing knee ligament injury ( or few rolling eyes ), after a small but tiring walkette which has twinged the knees and tired the slowly-restrengthening leg muscles generally, which is best; or what order?
Same question re post general exercises, static cycling, squats & hammy work - not much swelling, general knee soft tissue aches & some soreness, lasting overall leg muscle tiredness...
Seems odd to want to constrict off blood flow then encourage it - or vice versa - although both serve their purpose, I know.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ice for immediate injury..reduces blood flow and therefore swelling. No good for healing. Heat for longer term...increases blood flow so the magic blood pixies can do their healing thing.

Ice plunge bath can be invigorating. It certainly wakes you up.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
If injured, ice should be used initially, as Thorny said. If general recovery is what's needed, then an ice bath is marginally better than hot bath. It's why elite athletes use it. For mere mortals, a hot bath is not far off and is more pleasant. What doesn't do a lot of good imo, are the various hot and cold PR sprays, which don't penetrate far enough to have the proper effect.
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Just an update on this.
Asked my physio, a knee specialist, and he said that there's a debate going on now as to the value of ice with swelling - close down blood supply vs increase it, I guess. He didn't go into much detail.
As for my post-exercise twinges and painful soreness, he said to do whatever I felt helped best. I had been applying gel ice packs, but swapped to hot microwaved wheat bags. My knees (and tired leg muscles generally) seem to like those much better; are less stiff certainly. So it's heat for healing from now on, I think - unless maybe it's very painful: then I'll try ice Puzzled
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Grizzler wrote:
Just an update on this.
Asked my physio, a knee specialist, and he said that there's a debate going on now as to the value of ice with swelling - close down blood supply vs increase it, I guess. He didn't go into much detail.
As for my post-exercise twinges and painful soreness, he said to do whatever I felt helped best. I had been applying gel ice packs, but swapped to hot microwaved wheat bags. My knees (and tired leg muscles generally) seem to like those much better; are less stiff certainly. So it's heat for healing from now on, I think - unless maybe it's very painful: then I'll try ice Puzzled

As I understand it, initially the Ice (and anti-inflammatories) is simply to control inflammation/swelling....but once you get past that, you want to get blood to the area, through heat.

Over the years, I have come down on the side of, "Do as much as you are comfortable with".....and always listen to your body. ie. Don't fill yourself with strong painkillers and carry on (which we've all done).
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Ice in the G&T while sitting in a hot bath works for me.
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@welshskier, can I swap for a bottle of sweet bubbly in an ice bucket? Very Happy
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Grizzler,
No. You need gin.
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@musher,

Or, I believe, lemsip....
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I Was on another thread about ice being harmfull in many cases... its being looked into by some austrailian study groups. Looking at alternative ways of reducing inflamation and get better blood flow to the affected area..
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@musher, you really don't want to meet me on gin... It does nasty things to my alreadysometime-psychotic psychology Twisted Evil

@yorkshirelad, yes, my physio rasied a similar point, and with a background in biomedical science areas it interests me too (kind of why I raised the original thought/question). Yet it still seems recommended for swelling reduction in days long post injury or surgery, not just very initial acute phase.
Course, Ibuprofen, Diclofenac et al are now falling out of favour too (certainly as oral administration and for me I don't think that the topical applications - Voltarol etc - do much if anything) and I have met advice in the past that they shouldn't in any case be used in early days of sprains etc (so that the natural healing process can take place uninterrupted), so I wonder if we'll end up back at square 1 with hot compresses, or back to cabbage leaves, vinegar and brown paper, or...? Well, maybe the body is pretty good at working out what it neds all by itself most of the time, and it's just us stupid rushing humans who are too keen to get it back functioning at activities which it doesn't want to do yet (never mind maybe hurt it in the first place).

On the original reason for the query, I seem to have overdone something in my knee rehab over the last few days - irritated it anyway, lots more pain and bit of internal swelling - and I went back to icing it for a couple of sessions (after the hot wheat bags didn't work) and it seems to have helped, I think. So that's me confused again.. Confused
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Try cider vinegar compress.... worked well for my knee
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Try cider vinegar compress.... worked well for my knee
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
My late father-in-law, an osteopath and physioterrorist, with a strong interest in Sports medicine recommended ice for the initial acute phase of an injury, and then alternate heat and cold during the healing phase. Seems to work for his son who seems to get more than his fair share of sporting injuries
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
yorkshirelad wrote:
Try cider vinegar compress.... worked well for my knee


What are the benefits of a cider vinegar compress? Never heard of it Shocked
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hells Bells wrote:
.....physioterrorist, ......


I knew there was I reason I avoided going to them..

After the initial ice, heat period if I still had stiffness, slight pain, no inflammation, I would use an ultrasound massager with some aloe vera gel (assuming I did not have any aquaeous ultrasound gel to hand).

I have two of them, one is a battery operated toy which does work but is nothing like the mains connected beast. (1MHZ, with 3 settings and a pulse setting too for really deep muscles)

I might also use a percussion massager, of which I also have two (one battery operated which is light massage, and a beast which I use on buttocks and hamstrings)

A foam roller for general massage, or a shiatsu cushion.

I use the foam roller about 2-3 times a week.

For knees, I would concentrate on hamsting and quad join points and heat them up with a ultrasound massager. For me it tends to be the attachment areas which toughen up with age. Ultrasound helps increase collagen!

I would also get some resistance bands, and stretch your hamstrings using resistance. Lie on your back, and lift legs up straight with a resistance band under your feet which you pull on with your hands.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Bigtipper wrote:
Hells Bells wrote:
.....physioterrorist, ......


I knew there was I reason I avoided going to them..

After the initial ice, heat period if I still had stiffness, slight pain, no inflammation, I would use an ultrasound massager with some aloe vera gel (assuming I did not have any aquaeous ultrasound gel to hand).

I have two of them, one is a battery operated toy which does work but is nothing like the mains connected beast. (1MHZ, with 3 settings and a pulse setting too for really deep muscles)

I might also use a percussion massager, of which I also have two (one battery operated which is light massage, and a beast which I use on buttocks and hamstrings)

A foam roller for general massage, or a shiatsu cushion.

I use the foam roller about 2-3 times a week.

For knees, I would concentrate on hamsting and quad join points and heat them up with a ultrasound massager. For me it tends to be the attachment areas which toughen up with age. Ultrasound helps increase collagen!

I would also get some resistance bands, and stretch your hamstrings using resistance. Lie on your back, and lift legs up straight with a resistance band under your feet which you pull on with your hands.

I occasionally go to a Physical Therapist....a Lady that runs marathons and has the physique of a Racing Snake.....but wouldn't be out of place in Guantanamo Bay, torturing terrorists.

On coming in the door, she gives you a stick to bite on, saying, "You might find this helpful!"....I've had her reach across the massage bed, grab the far edge with her free hand, so she could put extra pressure under the bony elbow that was dug into somewhere painful.

She does a 2 hour session, using Ultra Sound to heat the muscles....when you can't handle any more, she goes back to the U/S, to soften the muscle further, before digging in again. She does about a months work in 2 hours! Masochists only need apply! Toofy Grin
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Have a look on the internet, but apple cider vinigar draws out the swelling, if you cant or dont want to take tablets its good way of reducing swelling without harming the surrounding tissue.. some say it has its roots in the old nursery rhyme, but a lot of old remedies do actually work, some dont though, !!! And some act like a plecibo... but if your body heals its self with the effect of a harmless plecibo i suppose its better than taking tablets that could have a side effect ... each to his own though
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Have a look on the internet, but apple cider vinigar draws out the swelling, if you cant or dont want to take tablets its good way of reducing swelling without harming the surrounding tissue.. some say it has its roots in the old nursery rhyme, but a lot of old remedies do actually work, some dont though, !!! And some act like a plecibo... but if your bidy heaks its self with the effect of a harmless plecibo i suppose its better than taking tablets that could have a side effect ... each to his own though
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
yorkshirelad wrote:
Have a look on the internet, but apple cider vinigar draws out the swelling, if you cant or dont want to take tablets its good way of reducing swelling without harming the surrounding tissue.. some say it has its roots in the old nursery rhyme, but a lot of old remedies do actually work, some dont though, !!! And some act like a plecibo... but if your bidy heaks its self with the effect of a harmless plecibo i suppose its better than taking tablets that could have a side effect ... each to his own though

If it's good enough for Ranulph Fiennes....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1053045/Sir-Ranulph-Fiennes-I-beat-arthritis-vinegar-cure-passed-mother.html
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@yorkshirelad, yep, wasn't joking when I suggested vinegar (good enough for Jack & Jill Very Happy ), ditto cabbage. Lot in some of these old home / hedgewitch remedies. Do you use heated compress?
@Bigtipper, can a layperson buy ultrasound, if so where, how much etc? Seems to be helpful to me via physio; would use at home if was strong enough to be able to be of use (but if so, is it safe to be sold to any old person??)
@Hells Bells, I am tending towards this on a day by day basis, as per what my knees and/or easily-tiring rehabbing muscles seem to be communicating what they need. Is your recommendation for alternate days, alternating treatments per day or..?

Saw Orthodox Consultant today, BTW - he's of the cycle, exercise and keep on icing school; there is still swelling at 7 weeks post injury & expected to be for many more weeks or months, so he favours ice to treat swelling still. Physio is more on fence & says whatever I feel works best.
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www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Mhz-ULTRASOUND-ULTRASONIC-MASSAGER-PAIN-THERAPY-ANTIAGING-WRINKLE-LOSS-MACHINE-/271371316026?hash=item3f2efdab3a:g:ANUAAOxyB9RS04gy

There are many contra-indications to the use of ultrasound, so you should read up on its use before you use it. There are also specific places on the body you should never use ultrasound. The gonads being one, the neck another, eyes other ones.

" ...It should not be used in areas where bones are growing. If a patient uses a pacemaker, it is not recommended to use this kind of treatment in the thoracic part of the body, as the pacemaker may be affected in those cases. Ultrasound devices should not be used where a fracture is healing, it should not be applied close to a patient’s eyes, and it should not be used over the uterus region of a pregnant woman. Therapists should be careful not to use ultrasound in patients who suffer from vascular disease and who have ischemic tissue. In this case, cells could die because of the blood supply’s inability to keep pace with the increased metabolic demand from tissues affected by the treatment."

".. Ultrasound should not be used to treat local pain without the patient first receiving a thorough diagnosis, and the cause of the pain has been confidently determined. It should not be used when there are cancerous lesions on or near area to be treated. If a patient shows symptoms of carrying serious infectious diseases or in cases where the patient should be avoiding excess heat or fevers, it is not advised to use therapeutic ultrasound."

Given these contra-indications, use of ultra sound on knees, hamstrings, and buttocks, without a thorough diagnosis of a condition which is muscle wear and tear, seems a relatively safe practice. However, a physioterrorist would disagree, just as qualified electricians would advise against fitting your own DIY solar system on a stand alone basis. In other words it can be dangerous if you do not read up on what you are about to do.

Using ultra sound when you have no diagnosis of cancer, is just something you have to risk. Just as you would if you signed a disclaimer with a physio.

ps. avoid lymph nodes as well...

pps. try having bone broths daily
www.nourishedkitchen.com/the-benefits-of-bone-broth/
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