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Edge & Wax over the Edge!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Gaza, Bought loads of skis off Glisshop - no real issues with the exception of a set of twin tips I had - jig must have slipped during drilling (or not set up right) and one binding was offset by 2mm. No problem, emailed them and they sorted return courier and sent another set straight away - arrived 3 days later.

Had 7 sets of skis off them now and been great.
ski holidays     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ignoring the whole email list thing for a moment, what does 'The Edge & Wax adventure continues' really mean?

In an ideal world it would mean that they still have some sort of physical presence that would allow me to finish off the necessary boot tweaks and redo the original footbeds but i think the chances of that are about 0%.

If they were flogging all the old stock and hardware, it seems that maybe all that's left is actually just the mailing list anyway. Hardly the living on that is being suggested.
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, I promised to report back on what the administrators had to say about sharing my information:

- emailed 12th March, no response
- emailed 16th March, no response
- phoned 16th March. Told to resend the email to a different email address and expect a response within 24 hours.
- emailed again as requested on 16th March, no response
- phoned 20th March and was put through to someone who was apparently dealing with this. He was not in the office and said that he didn't have the full details and would get back to me. He muttered about it being normal to sell customer lists to companies in the same sector and having taken legal advice. We agreed that he would come back to me with a proper answer by the end of the week, and I resent the email again, this time directly to him.

If it was all above board, I would have expected them to come back with a clear response by now.......but perhaps I'm an old cynic.
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@sj1608, thanks for the update... Don't forget often what can appear a conspiracy is more normally just pure incompetence.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@NickyJ, I think you may well be right, but it's still not good practice.

Anyway I now have a response. My specific queries referred to in the response were:
1. What organisation generated the email and on what basis.
2. What, if any, third parties you have shared my email address with and on what basis.

Their response:
Background
I understand that certain intellectual property rights and the customer database of Bliss Outdoor Limited - in administration ('the Company') were transferred to Glisshop as part of the realisation of assets within the administration.

A sale agreement was executed between the Company and the purchaser and we have confirmed the position with the solicitor that acted on that sale who has advised that the Company was entitled to sell the database to a third party (in this case Glisshop) and that third party is then able to use it for the purpose for which it was collected.

Your queries
In answer to your specific queries:

1 - The e-mail was not generated by us and therefore we are unable to confirm definitively who produced it.
2 - As detailed above, the Company sold the rights to its client list. That client list was sold by the Company on the basis that it should only be used for the purpose(s) that it was originally collected.


Any thoughts from anyone? I gave my details in order to receive Edge & Wax's newsletter. Given that Edge and Wax are no longer trading, I cannot receive their newsletter, so can't see how 'should only be used for the purpose(s) that it was originally collected' is being met. And I certainly didn't give permission to share my details with a third party whatever the circumstance.
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@sj1608, l've had a couple of similar cases of mailing list being sold, and since both were sold to companies in the same market segment, it didn't concern me in the slightest.

- The first was Step Stone, which was a job website, which didn't last very long. I was then contacted by a different Job Site company.

- The second was for Borders the Book Shop, who couldn't compete with online only companies, and went bust I think their list was sold to Books.com

If you don't like the new company contacting you, just unsubscribe. If you are that paranoid, use a different email address for every website you buy from, that way you will know if it has been resold.

A contact list from any selling website is a valuable asset, as the purchaser has a ready list of known buyers of their market segment. Also don't forget that practically everything you do online is tracked and recorded (which is one of the main functions of cookies), which is why for example you can view something on Amazon, and then find the same or similar items appearing in banner or sidebar adverts. Also don't forget Google etc make their money by selling your browsing history......
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ask them to remove your details from the database. It they don't then you could go legal but in my view life is too short.

Btw Google (and others probably) allow you to add a suffix to your email address so youremail+companyname@gmail.com will work and you can then track the spread of your email address.

I have my own domain name with a catchall email so I use a unique email for every company I give an address to
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I guess it is down to what was in the depths of the privacy policy extant when we signed up. I have to admit I very rarely download and save a copy of it (by rarely I think that is actually only once!). There may have been something in there that allowed it to be sold / passed on. I remember one training course I did where a companies privacy policy didn't allow it to happen. I will try and dig the details out. However unless anybody has a copy we can't prove one way or the other.
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@PowderAdict, I'm well aware of all the above, but amazed that you aren't worried so long as it's in the same market sector. It's just the thin end of the wedge, as one company can then pass on to the next and the next. I already use throwaway addresses, but since I actually bought from Edge and Wax on this occasion I didn't.

I'm not paranoid in the least, just work in IT, so very well aware of the implications. Last time this happened to me (an insurance company inadvertently passed on details without permission, which they admitted), it resulted in data being shared with around 50 different companies, as the first started renting the data out to all and sundry.
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@NickyJ, I signed up two years ago, at which point you had to explicitly agree to your data being shared with a third party, which I never do.

And it was very clear in my conversation with the guy from the administrators that they knew they had sold names for which explicit agreement had not been given, hence the reliance on advice from the solicitor.

I'll simply report them to the ICO, which is almost zero effort, and will at least place on record what they have done, which may stop them doing it another time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
In general terms, if you think a company has mishandled your personal data, you can complain to the Office of the Information Commissioner.
In this case, since the original company is gone and the purchaser is in France I suspect you wouldn't have much luck.
Edit: you're obviously aware of the ICO from the post you made while I was typing this!
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Tubaski, the issue is not the purchaser, who has done nothing wrong, but the administrators. The ICO confirmed that the administrators have the same obligation as the original owners.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
spyderjon wrote:
ster wrote:
.......Well that's one way to push it into Administration is to announce it will shortly go. Nothing like giving suppliers and customers a sense of security!

The suppliers are well aware of the situation - not being paid significant amounts of money against considerably overdue invoices for goods supplied in good faith tends to make a supplier notice these things. I know this as I'm one of them Evil or Very Mad

As a supplier id have rather waited it out than get administrator in. Its scandalous what they charge. After they've took there admin cost there's nothing left for the honest hardworking small business. I've been shafted twice now by companies going under
ski holidays     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@sj1608, If you take a look at the Amazon policy there is a clause there.....

Quote:

Business Transfers: As we continue to develop our business, we might sell or buy stores, subsidiaries or business units. In such transactions, customer information generally is one of the transferred business assets but remains subject to the promises made in any pre-existing Privacy Notice (unless, of course, the customer consents otherwise). Also, in the unlikely event that Amazon.com, Inc. or substantially all of its assets are acquired, customer information will of course be one of the transferred assets.


If there was a similar that would allow the details to be passed on to a purchaser, though I am not sure how that would actually stand up if they went into administration and the administrators attempted to sell on. As I said, I believe you would need to have a copy of the details behind.
ski holidays     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@NickyJ, it wasn't a business transfer, where it would have been allowed to transfer the data. They simply sold the list. The list would probably have included addresses and phone numbers as well as email addresses.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
email address these days is just a postal address - people will send you stuff which you may or may not like and in the modern world you just have to filter it out just like you do with junk mail. Big data makes the world go round - we will all use Google and its free because the data collected or marketing opportunity which someone else pays for.

think this is sniff it up and move on - they have sold your email address and the fact you like skiing.
snow conditions     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
sj1608 wrote:
@NickyJ, it wasn't a business transfer, where it would have been allowed to transfer the data. They simply sold the list. The list would probably have included addresses and phone numbers as well as email addresses.

Well, they didn't just sell the list, we know that they also sold the domain - so they might have sold it as the 'internet part' of the business.
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@alti - dude, I suspect they have sold far more than the email address, based upon their response, which you can read above.

@Tubaski, they said they'd sold the database, they didn't even try to pass it off as a business transfer.
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Back, by another name??

https://skiandsnowboardwax.co.uk
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@big_ben, why the question marks? The about us clearly says it is Scott
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If Trump can run America after going bump countless times, I'm sure as hell not going to put Scott and the boys down for giving it a bash.

Good luck to them


Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 16-10-17 18:52; edited 1 time in total
ski holidays     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Suspect there will be plenty in the industry not wanting to deal with him again though.
snow conditions     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@Dave of the Marmottes, I'm sure there won't, and that is their choice, but Holmenkol clearly want to and as I'vesaid before in fairness, there has been absolutely no attempt to hide the fact they were Edge and Wax so anyone who is going to be dealing with them go in with their eyes wide open

Absolute credit to Scott for being so crystal clear - I don't know the guy but I have to say that many wouldn't be so clear about issues in the past on a business, let alone and customer front.
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Considering they are trying to build back up, focusing on what they did best, and something that is in short supply on these shores (IMO) - reliable ski servicing and supplies rather than being a full blown shop selling all sorts of equipment under the sun, hopefully they can make it a success, best of luck to them i say. One of the things you simply can't buy is experience!
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Indeed and with Holmenkol there are only 2 main stockists in the UK too and racers love the stuff. It's great wax and I love their tools too.

If they can get their name out their with racers (well their parents! ) then they should have a good chance in flogging a decent amount of wax.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
PaulC1984 wrote:
Absolute credit to Scott for being so crystal clear


I concur.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
My dealings with them were limited but I had no complaints- quite the opposite in fact.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I bought a couple of pairs of skis from E&W. Some gloves too. Always happy with the service. But I guess there’s more to running a successful business than just keeping your customers happy.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
After all the comments about how great it is to see Scott Hargreaves back in business I feel compelled to have my say.

I hadn't any grievance with Edge & Wax or Scott Hargreaves, their customer service was excellent.
However I have a big problem with owners of businesses who hide behind the Limited companies that go bust and start back up a year later.

Lets look at the faxes he's using his old Facebook page as it has 180000 followers he can instantly contact. This is however the property of Edge & Wax which is now owned by the administrators so possibly breaking the law.

But lets get to my main grievance
Edge & Wax which Scott Hargreaves was the owner of went down for well over £600,000.00 the sales of stock and workshop equipment I bet didn't make more than £80,000.00. By the time the administrators took their cut and HMRC and bank got a look in there was nothing left for the poor creditors who supplied them in good faith.
The big multi national company may well suffer but the one's I fell sorry for are the smaller suppliers who take a hit of 5,10 or 15 grand they will have really suffered. Jon from the Piste office and even Snowheads went down for a four figure sum (I do know how much but I don't know if I can say)
I do find it unbelievable that Anything Technical is back supplying him with stock even on a pro forma. However I do know there are some very upset suppliers out there that won't be supplying him.

So its up to individual Snowheads to decide if you wish to support Mr Hargreaves and his new business Ski & Snowboard wax. However do spare a thought for all the business out of pocket and how you would feel if you owned one of them.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Glen Charman wrote:

Lets look at the faxes he's using his old Facebook page as it has 180000 followers he can instantly contact. This is however the property of Edge & Wax which is now owned by the administrators so possibly breaking the law.


Genuine question, can the Administrators really own the Facebook page?? d have thought that remains the property of Facebook itself.

Regards Anything Tech supplying Scott with Holmenkol gear, that surprises me. Id have thought that would be introducing competition for them as:

1) Anything Tech are pretty much the only supplier of Holmenkol in the UK
2) Scott is under cutting Anything Tech
3) Any Comp Skiers can get wax cheaper than either of the 2 stores by simply contacting holmenkol and providing them with your Club / FIS / etc etc making what is very good wax and tools pretty darn affordable.

Do you know for sure Anything Tech is providing Scott with gear (yes I know they are the main distributor) or just guessing?


Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 16-10-17 18:51; edited 1 time in total
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Glen Charman wrote:

However I have a big problem with owners of businesses who hide behind the Limited companies that go bust and start back up a year later.


On this point as well, whilst I in no way condone the large sums owed by companies when going bust, I don't think you can say in this case it was to hide behind a LTD company. Having my own LTD company, its not there to hide behind, but is there for all manner of reasons - in Scotts case, because a business of that size he simply couldn't have run as a Sole Trader / self employed.

I understand your sentiment, and should this have been some back alley car salesman after making a quick buck or dodgy window company etc fair enough, but you are somewhat off the mark in this case.

As you know having a company of your own, profits are not always assured - companies can run at a loss, yet still have to pay staff, Directors get advances that are not always paid back by year end, debts are owed for jobs completed etc etc.

£600k sounds a lot of money, but if a 1 man LTD company running from home can have directors advances of circa £5k outstanding at year end and debts of a similar value, its is very easy for a company the size of E&W to stack up debts.

Im not saying its right, but it does happen.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Anything Tech are the UK distributer of Holmenkol, Fritschi, Colltex and Wintersteiger

Regarding Facebook I don't know but it is a trade account which is used to promote sales. The only people who can accesses the account would be Facebook and the employees of Edge & Wax which is in administration.

I know Edge & Wax wasn't a back street dealer but he keep changing supplier to keep trading. You can also blame the trade if they had communicated between each other he wouldn't have racked up so much debt.

I still don't think he should be able to start up a business
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Glen Charman wrote:
Anything Tech are the UK distributer of Holmenkol, Fritschi, Colltex and Wintersteiger

Regarding Facebook I don't know but it is a trade account which is used to promote sales. The only people who can accesses the account would be Facebook and the employees of Edge & Wax which is in administration.

I know Edge & Wax wasn't a back street dealer but he keep changing supplier to keep trading. You can also blame the trade if they had communicated between each other he wouldn't have racked up so much debt.

I still don't think he should be able to start up a business


I think without knowing their business model and how their contact / sales were agreed, it is far to easy to see a headline figure of £600k (which seems to keep changing btw) and make assumptions - It is very easy to get the info online for Companies, showing their current liabilities, Directors advance payment, full returns etc.

A quick search for a smaller Ski Shop retailer I know of has current liabilities of £118,000 and turned a profit last year of £3400 - they are much smaller than Edge and Wax were.

Regards your comment about not being able to set up a business, why not?? Granted the joy or issue (whichever side of the failure you are on) of a LTD company is that should a business fail, you are to a degree protected, but not entirely. Should a sole trader fail or should someone be who is employed lose their job, they are entitled to find work - that is all Scott is doing.

Hell, even ex convicts are allowed to work.

Id be more annoyed if he was sitting on his backside claiming benefits.

What one thinks and what one is allowed to do under the law are entirely different things, and given Scott was not would or even suggested of business malpractice, fraud etc etc he is full entitled to run another business. Good luck to him.
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@PaulC1984, The 600K is a true figure and there are snowheads who have all the details

I have no problem with him working at all. I just don't believe people who go bust should be able to start up a new business as if noting happed
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ive it, not disputing the figure was large, but the DPS figure of £125k was disputed, and if we are honest with ourselves I think we would agree. 125K as a rough guess would equate to 400-500 sets of skis - thats an awful lot of skis for one shop to owe on, given the other figures owed were not even close to that (next largest circa £55k)

Turn that 125K into £12.k due to the decimal and you are still talking £500k which is indeed a lot of money.

I suppose you have to ask yourself, as a company owner yourself, if your company went bump, would you want to work again, provide for yourself and family and of course the answer would be yes.

I dont agree those who have been fraudulent should start a company again - there is of course a vast difference
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Trading while insolvent is illegal. In theory you can be disqualified from being a director of a company in future though it doesn't happen very often.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@rjs, indeed but none of us know enough info to know if this was the case.

If it was the case Scott would / could have been charged with Wrongful Trading.

In terms of his new company he is neither 'Passing Off' now is there anything wrong being done under Sec216

Last year circa 97000 individual and 25000 businesses declared bankruptcy - that's an awful lot of people out of work.

Rjs - that's for pointing out my boots yesterday - I hadn't realised with just pottering around with the little lad. Old boots have gone in the bin and new boots out of the cupboard.... what a flipping difference Happy - I shall have to have you checking me out from the rear more often Toofy Grin Toofy Grin Toofy Grin
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Not trying to comment on Edge and Wax, but at least they say on the new site what went on in the past, so fair play.

Back in 2009 I worked for a large online company that went bust due to RBS pulling the plug, what the bank did and the administrators did was scandalous, administration is big business for the major accountancy firms, pretty sure one of these days, someone will be a whistle blower and the likes of KPMG and PWC will get hauled through the courts for fraud!!
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@livetoski, similar story here. I worked for a dot com in 2001 which went under. The Liquidators sold it to an “acquaintance” for far less than it was worth.

Happens all the time.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
livetoski wrote:
but at least they say on the new site what went on in the past, so fair play.


Indeed, I agree
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