Ski Club 2.0 Home
Snow Reports
FAQFAQ

Mail for help.Help!!

Log in to snowHeads to make it MUCH better!
Username:-
 Password:
Remember me:
durr, I forgot...
Or Register
(to be a proper snow-head, all official-like!)

Steep Icy and Scary

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

I like to go forwards more than I go sideways, so I try to find as much grip as I can with my outside ski which is possible even on scraped glacier pistes (although it's imperative that I keep my speed down otherwise it gets pear shaped very quickly). If I really can't find any grip I'll get more two footed and make much more braquage-like turns at very slow speed.


Yep me too. Oh and I should have added another factor to the decision: ski width/profile! If I'm on something >100mm with rocker I'm going to get pragmatic pretty quickly Very Happy
snow report     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
You can also separate your legs which gives you a much wider support. Coupled with crouching to keep your weight closer to the slope you look like a sack of potatoes. But a sack of potatoes that remains vertical...
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Crouching more as I go round the turn tends to help me on steeps. Not sure if that's an official technique but normally works for me in getting round the turn quicker and therefore not getting out of control.
snow report     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
@SlipnSlide, unconvinced there aren't better things to do...
latest report     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
My email inbox tells me that Inside Out are running a relevant session this weekend:

Monday 6 February 2017 at 10am
This month's clinic will focus on the Skills for Hard and Icy Snow - For many people skiing hard and icy snow is one of their greatest challenges. In this clinic we will help you with skills and tactics to overcome these conditions.
snow conditions     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
I disagree that being reasonably two footed is a "survival mode". I find it is a good way of getting into a rhythm and loading the edges. You can always then bend your knees more in search of greater grip as the edges bite and as that happens I find my body tends to naturally angulate.
ski holidays     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Dr. Will wrote:
You can always then bend your knees more in search of greater grip as the edges bite and as that happens I find my body tends to naturally angulate.
Out if interest, in what way/direction are you bending your knees to find extra grip?
snow conditions     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
When I bend more the outside ski's edge digs in more as the outside leg below the knee is more a an angle to the rest of my body
ski holidays     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@Dr. Will, do you mean that you are actually flexing your knee joint (in the conventional bending your knees sense) and that somehow you are twisting so that your knees are pointing towards the hill so that bending them increases edge angle.
Or, do you mean that you are moving your knees sideways towards the hill and he hips follow - perhaps a movement that starts in the ankles?
ski holidays     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I'll try out a few icy blacks today and let you know Very Happy The main thoughts in my mind is keep reasonably two footed at the beginning of the turn, soft onto edges until they grip, keep upper torso facing down the slope, and lower centre of gravity for greater grip, the rest kind of happens automatically!
ski holidays     
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Dr. Will wrote:
I'll try out a few icy blacks today and let you know Very Happy The main thoughts in my mind is keep reasonably two footed at the beginning of the turn, soft onto edges until they grip, keep upper torso facing down the slope, and lower centre of gravity for greater grip, the rest kind of happens automatically!
That's a very good description of something like braquage turns, which for me would be a 'survival' mode when skiing a slope when is genuinely icy. Skiing like that is a very big adaptation from the kind of turns you'd probably do on good snow, so you would be making turns at low speed in a narrow corridor because there is very little grip to be found.
ski holidays     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Learn how to side slip and get comfortable sliding sideways on flat skis, then try sideslipping across the slope at a 45 degree angle then backwards, try it on the lower leg, then only on the little toe edge of the upper ski, then do 360's etc etc... once you know you can slide in balance and not fall over it helps when you lose grip when skiing at pace. If you are balanced on your planks you can just wait it out and look for some decent snow to find grip again.. happy days...

we had a lot of challenging hard packed cannon snow on our recent coaching trips and we spent a lot of time on balance, posture and movements and everyone did great Smile
snow report     
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I like to think that I can cope with most conditions but a month or so ago I had 3 falls in a week. My SL skis were a little bit blunt, but the snow had been scraped down on some shoulders to an old freezing rain layer, we are talking grey reflective glassy shine here, I could not get any edge grip at all (I did sharpen my skis later).

There was a steep section of a black run in the same condition at the top (just above the race practice course) that even the local race teams were not turning on, the only way to get down was to straightline it and reduce speed a couple of hundred metres down when it flattened out and the snow was just normal hardpack. I tried that and by god, it worked really well, just a bit scary going that fast on a surface that you know you can't turn on Shocked

@DrLawn, As you say, maybe falling more often does work, I used to fall so often that I was totally used to it as a normal part of skiing Toofy Grin
snow report     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
And make sure your skis have very sharp edges. These conditions more than anything else will benefit from a nightly sharpen with something like this to keep edges bright, or a full on service if your edges aren't sharp to begin with.
snow report     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Scarpa wrote:
There was a steep section of a black run in the same condition at the top (just above the race practice course) that even the local race teams were not turning on, the only way to get down was to straightline it and reduce speed a couple of hundred metres down when it flattened out and the snow was just normal hardpack. I tried that and by god, it worked really well, just a bit scary going that fast on a surface that you know you can't turn on Shocked
Which works OK if there is nobody else around, but if it's busy it's not a great tactic. That's how I ended up being airlifted to hospital at the start of this season, as a result of being hit at high speed by a skier who I think was happy to be out of control at the bottom of a steep, icy red as there was a long flat section at the end of the piste which would have allowed him to regain control had he been able to avoid me.
snow report     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@rob@rar, Agreed 100%. In this place you can see for almost a km as there are no bends past the steep section and no one else was skiing that side, they were all taking the blue schussy track that bypasses it. No one could even come in from the trees due to the race netting Very Happy
snow report     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Dr. Will wrote:
I'll try out a few icy blacks today and let you know Very Happy The main thoughts in my mind is keep reasonably two footed at the beginning of the turn, soft onto edges until they grip, keep upper torso facing down the slope, and lower centre of gravity for greater grip, the rest kind of happens automatically!
That's a very good description of something like braquage turns, which for me would be a 'survival' mode when skiing a slope when is genuinely icy. Skiing like that is a very big adaptation from the kind of turns you'd probably do on good snow, so you would be making turns at low speed in a narrow corridor because there is very little grip to be found.


Did a few icy slopes today as planned (though conditions not as icy as yesterday). In Les Angles and Font Romeu where I am skiing at the moment the runs are pretty narrow, so effectively I am skiing a corridor of icy slope to avoid others and looking at videos of braquage, it does apply in my case, the knee bend I was talking about appears to be secondary to movement initiated by the hips while keeping the torso facing down the slope. Ankle roll happens more when I have more space to play with. I think my style tends to subconsciously change very frequently in the back of my mind I have what I feel is appropriate for the condition/situation at the time to keep me balanced and reasonably still in the upper half of my body
snow report     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Try repeating non, non,NON,non...
Get to 30.00 to set the scene with real shinnanigans at 3.26
https://www.redbull.tv/video/AP-1PMT7S62N1W11/la-liste?playlist=AP-1PMT7S62N1W11
Pucker up.
snow conditions     
 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
@DrLawn,

I would suggest finding a good instructor not only to work on technique but just as importantly on your confidence. You need to be positive about your skiing and this is almost as fundamental as technique.
To use your edges correctly and get them to hold you have to first know they will hold not just hope they will. If you are not positive you will not commit fully and not attain as good an edge as you could.

Many skiers work on their technique, but do not spend even half that time working on their mental approach to their skiing.
snow report     
 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
DrLawn as I recommended to someone else it is worth around a tenner (probably less) on a downloadable 'skiing with confidence type' self-hypnosis file (Plenty on Google). I played such a MP3 file through comfortable headphones as I went to sleep a good number of times and was amazed at the difference it made to how I approached skiing. Given the costs of all other solutions and the success I felt from doing so I'd absolutely recommend it as something inexpensive to try. I doubted how successful it might be, but was absolutely stunned at the difference it made to how I approached skiing and this in itself drastically improved my technique as I went about everything much more positively and with belief that it would work.
snow conditions     
 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
Old Fartbag wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Old Fartbag wrote:
- Skiing more 2 footed, so getting bite from 2 edges (also helps stop overloading 1 edge)
Not sure that this works on very hard-packed/icy snow. If there is very little grip to be found, being extremely well balanced on your outside ski will help find it so your ski grips and you can control your speed and direction. If you spread your weight/balance across both skis there's every chance you'll find less grip overall. I'm in Les Arcs this week and the pistes are mostly hard-packed and polished - when I'm very well balanced on my outside skiing (pretty much skiing just on one foot for much of the turn) I can find grip. But if I move a bit on to my inside ski the outside ski will often break sideways as it loses grip.

As I said, these tips have been given over many years, so may now be frowned upon (as it probably goes back to the days of straight skis and old school technique).

I experiment with what works on the day and sometimes have found being "more" 2 footed helps...other times it doesn't. It may depend on how much grip there is, what type of turn I'm doing and how fast I'm going.

TBF. I did emphasize that it "might" help and wasn't the important thing to take away from my post.....though from what you are saying, it probably won't.


On old straight skis the technique to deal with hardpack/ice was most def to get pressure on the outside ski and weight/pressure forward against the front of the boot to drive the tip. If the tip/front of the ski did not bite the rest of the ski struggled to hold the edge.
latest report     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I learned on long straight skis, I still use the same approach, it still works even on shorter fatter skis, I was a terrified learner, I learned to edge and side slip because of my fear of heights, It still gets me out of sticky situations, I edge like that, then go back to a step turn and off I go again.
snow report     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
speed098 wrote:


On old straight skis the technique to deal with hardpack/ice was most def to get pressure on the outside ski and weight/pressure forward against the front of the boot to drive the tip. If the tip/front of the ski did not bite the rest of the ski struggled to hold the edge.


On hardpack, I agree.

I'm talking about the kind of "boiler plate" ice where there is no grip, unless you have expert technique and razor-sharp edges....I even quoted the source to back up what I said....anyway, it's almost certainly a non-issue and not of relevance now (if it ever was Toofy Grin ).

Edit. Interestingly, I have found this modern advice, showing both methods have their place: http://www.winter-sports.com/EN/Ski_lessons/skiing_on_ice.php


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Sun 26-02-17 13:52; edited 2 times in total
snow report     
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@DrLawn, I don't understand why you were skiing alone on ice when you should have been on the PreBBWUW5 and S13BB, we had a ball and it would have been enhanced with your presence.
snow report     
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I used to struggle on ice, and still get the odd scare. I booked a private lesson in Serre Che asking to help me improve on ice.
Turned out I was doing quite a bit wrong. The lesson was brilliant and has made me a much better, more confident skier on ice, though still struggle at times.
I'd pass on the advice I was given but you really need to get a professional to ski with you and tell you where you need
To change things.
Decent edges obviously help.
The worst thing is hitting ice when not expecting it. Some of those Tesco style wet floor signs would be useful.
I can't recall seeing ice signs on pistes. No doubt, if the put out ice signs and then someone slipped on a bit that was marked as Ivey, it would spark a lawsuit.......
snow report     
 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
cameronphillips2000 wrote:
I'd pass on the advice I was given but you really need to get a professional to ski with you and tell you where you need
To change things.

I'd agree that personally tailored advice is best but why not share with us anyway - it might help someone - like me Very Happy

You never know what is useful to know. I read elsewhere on the forum about tipping the inside foot onto the little toe edge at the start of a turn. I have been consciously using it to check that I've committed to the weight transfer (one of my particular weaknesses). It certainly feels good but I don't have any video or third party feedback.
latest report     
 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
There has been a lot of hard, icy snow around this season. I don't like it.

It is true that if you have your weight evenly balanced you have two edges gripping... but half the pressure I suppose. With modern skis we use both skis and edges rather than the old "saute-pedale" turn where you hopped from outside ski to outside ski.


http://youtube.com/v/2soYD8LX7YI

It is also a question of angulation. You have to tip your skis over to get the edge biting into the snow at the optimum angle, that may involve tipping the outside leg's knee inwards to get sufficient angle and bit on that ski during the turn - you see slalom skiers doing this and they are skiing on rock hard pistes.



If the outside leg of this skier were straight the ski would be flatter on the snow, at a different angle to the inner ski and liable to break away.

As it gets steeper inner leg flexes a lot more



You really do want the weight mid to forward when completing a turn on this kind of slope. Pressure on front of the boot. The backs of the skis won't grip and if you are slightly backwards you risk a nasty fall.

Also skier is relatively upright which puts the cog over the skis and more pressure on the edges.
ski holidays     
 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Funny. I often get the opposite feeling when I fall. Feel like it's somehow a bit of a good thing.
Maybe cause no one has ever mocked me for falling, or told me it's something to be embarrassed of.

You could ski nicely groomed blue runs the rest of your life and never make any mistake. But if you're trying hard to improve and push your limits, you're more bound to make mistakes and - therefore - fall. So it's often a result of being ambitious. Plus, the more you fall (and don't get hurt), the less scared of it you become (and fear is something that really stops you from learning/improving).

Of course that doesn't mean you should be skiing like crazy and out of control and putting other people in danger (like some dumbasses out there), but still. There have been falls which shook my confidence a bit (in the sense of "reminding me I'm not that good and should be careful", which is also good), but not my self esteem.

As my girlfriend says, "if you didn't fall, you didn't go skiing" ("Wer nicht gestürzt ist, ist auch kein Ski gefahren").

Shake it off, be glad you didn't get injured, and move on.
latest report     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Gustavo, I feel as you do. I don't mind falling, and aren't generally scared of it (unless in a no fall zone, when I really am!). This is despite falling having resulted in an injury once: I regard it as a normal part of skiing and learning. I fall a lot less than I did when an intermediate, but still have the occasional spill, and it doesn't bother me., Most of the time you'll find me laughing whilst getting up again.

Falling on ice though, at any speed. That can be fairly painful. That old hip bang - ouch. Best avoided, IMHO...
ski holidays     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Harry Flashman wrote:
Gustavo, I feel as you do. I don't mind falling, and aren't generally scared of it (unless in a no fall zone, when I really am!). This is despite falling having resulted in an injury once: I regard it as a normal part of skiing and learning. I fall a lot less than I did when an intermediate, but still have the occasional spill, and it doesn't bother me., Most of the time you'll find me laughing whilst getting up again.

Falling on ice though, at any speed. That can be fairly painful. That old hip bang - ouch. Best avoided, IMHO...


I agree, falling on ice is NOT pleasant at all, and should be avoided! However, it's not reason to feel ashamed as the OP apparently did.

And sorry, but if I may ask: how exactly did you get injured (what kind of injury was it)? Just for precaution/safety purposes...
snow report     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Don't mind at all - nothing too serious, I snapped an ACL after a fall a few years back. It was at the end of the season and I fell badly (on a pisted run, of all places). I just got unlucky. Hasn't put me off.
snow report     



Derived from phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group & 2004-2013 snowHeads.com Terms and conditions  Privacy Policy