Being less rubbish at skiing. A masterplan. Anyone got any ideas?

A snowHead

Fifespud, maybe though Dobby may just find some great ideas in the BASS Ski Priority clips. Prolly some of the best Visual/Audio learning tools on Youtube.

The mogul stuff was just to show the relevance of earlier skiing techniques with todays evolved skills. Joubert's insight passes the test of time.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Elston, good point - unless you're fairly experienced already, it's hard to sort out good from bad.

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skimastaaah, I havent read this thread in detail but from a quick skim it sounded as though you initially took the stance of the way to learn is to maximize time on snow, learning by watching and doing is THE way to progress your skiing. You then posted a shedload of aspirational and self help videos and changed tack to include that an informed and prepared student will have better potential to develop.

Not sure what was in the 96 BASI manual but the current one lists a dozen or so teaching styles to cater for a a wide range of learner types and where the student is in terms of acquiring skills.

"Self teach" is one teaching style which has it's place for certain types of learners at a certain point in their journey to be a better skier but isn't the only one.

Curious to hear your views on where you feel group or individual coaching/instructing comes into play? or dont you feel it is relevent?

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Mike Pow,

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skimastaaah, I've had many teachers, of skiing and other skills, who have been full of enthusiasm and have taught me sod all. Unfortunately. And I am the sort of person who is quite keen to learn. Luckily, in the last few years, and thanks to snowHeads, I have found instructors who do not fall into that unfortunate category.

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IMHO, you can post up all the youtube vids in the world, but ultimately I don't think anyone can really learn much, if anything, from any of them. Few ideas for drills (drills that reinforce whatever you think you're doing, rather than drills to correct/progress), and maybe a summertime substitute for looking at other people skiing while you're on the chairlift to see who looks good and who looks like they're taking a dump while forcing their way around a turn.

None of the vids on this thread make me go "oh I think I'm doing that wrong". Seems the lesson here is use your mind to make yourself think you're skiing more smoothly and more rounded.

I certainly need someone to see me ski, ask me what I think I'm doing, tell me what I'm actually doing, and then give a hint as to what I could do to make it better. I'd wager the OP is in exactly the same boat.

M.Ed you say? I'd suggest an MBA personally. Far more scope for BS bingo Wink

He gets better Shocked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5TBuH_GROg

You know it makes sense.

andy,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

This is the highest ranked video in google for 'ski carving' and has nearly 2m views and 1400 likes. Is it useful resource to learn from? I am not an instructor but whats the general consensus? I really don't know about these things but I know that in the past I have learnt lots of bad habits from watching people, on video and in person, who inspired me at the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzIkIQa3e0

A snowHead

skimottaret,
What I've said and on which pages................
P1 .... 1996 BASI Instructors Manual £25
P2 .. My tip ............ get on the snow, have fun, watch other skiers, work out what they do well, know what you want to do well.
...When you watch skiers skiing you look for stance, leg work, use of both skis to initiate, control, and finish the turn, and fluidity of movement. Watch Mayer in the clip even when he's doing the daft drills he remains relaxed, and quiet in upper the body. You gotta work out what he's doing to achieve this, why there's no over-rotation, what's he doing to the skis to make sure they are pressured and on their edge, and how he angulates his knees/legs throughout his skiing to control the skis their whole length. Simples!

P3…In other words, get real, wise-up, go do what you have to do to do what you want to do. Simples.

P4 …WTF ............ Who are my "students" that I'm "insulting".
….Skill Aquisition effect due to a combination of Kinaesthetic/Visual and Cogent Learning styles

P5......You remember less than 10% of what you hear, 20% of what you read, 35%plus of what you see….
......I reiterate my original stance, there's no better opportunity for learning and progress than actually putting time on snow. The more informed and prepared one is, the greater the potential to develop. Be an active and engaged learner, rather than passive and expectant. Just because you've paid £200 for a week's set of ski lessons does not mean to say job done.

I've never suggest "self-teach", I've only suggested get on the snow and do. A combination of "Experiential Learning" and "Informed Preparedness".................. Classic Joubert!

A snowHead

Pedantica, You should have asked for you money back!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Elston, not bad, but only up to a point. For instance, I know - because instructors have observed it and told me - that I have a tendency to do funny/wrong things with my hips. But an instruction simply to "watch your hips" would have been completely meaningless to me, unless someone had told me what I was doing and why it was inefficient. Also, to demonstrate the correct stance without showing where your weight should be seems to me to be inadequate: I am often doomed, as are many, by being in the back seat.

But I like the way he demonstrates how to roll the skis on to their 'eches' and the drills for helping with that.

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Elston, it's a whole world better than the guy with the knee brace, but just one viewing and I was already confused about some points:
You carve just with your knees? (He uses huge lateral movements with his hips in his performance demos)
You want your chest always facing the valley? (He doesn't in his performance demos)
No reference of of making a clean transitions, which in my experience is the biggest block to people carving linked turns. He makes nice clean transitions, but that's rare for someone who is learning to carve, so I would have liked to have seen some way of dealing with that.

People will prefer to learn in their own way and I don't get much from watching videos like these. I find them more useful as a source of teaching ideas (and things to avoid doing), but I've not found any video that I feel has made a significant improvement to my understanding or application of skills.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

rob@rar,

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rob@rar, This guys got his carving underpants on...............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcGaXRQ7l4Q&feature=relmfu

This skier is NOT me. snowHead

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I was the first person to write the term 'kinesthetic (sic) learning' in this thread even if mine was spelt as an Americanism. I very nearly replied to a post 2 days ago that took the piss out of skimastaah for using the same term but the poster thought the better of it and deleted it.

But this thread is once again deteriorating into the usual playground bullying BS that so many other snowheads threads do. rolling eyes

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skimastaaah, it's Darren Turner. His iPhone apps are very good and very reasonably prices.

skimastaaah, I assumed that you must have gone through the BASI pathway at some point if you had a manual but I am not clear what was the current thinking in 96.... your other quotes still seem to indicate that you are advocating that effective learning happens towards the learner design/ learner initiated/ self teach on what BASI term the "Spectrum of Responsibility" in their current manual.

Just so we are clear, I am a big fan of Joubert as well. I dont utilise the terms Experiential learning and Informed preparedness as I wasn't taught those but I think we are arguing semantics and that a good instructor/ coach will use similar methods as you advocate if the student is at the right point in the learning process.

Self teach is defined by BASI as the pupil takes full responsibility for their own learning, is that not the same as get on snow and do?

Learner Initiated is led by the learner and could very well include review of video lessons and model performances as per the links you put up.

These are useful learning methods at a point in the journey but do you not feel that for students at an earlier point in the process of learning a motor skill in an open environment could benefit from coaching and instructing?

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Elston, most watched doesnt mean best as you probably know, some decent exercises but he skis in a very old Austrian style of being overly countered and puts himself in a very weak position.

"watch your hips" at 3:35 is really poor advice and will instill some major bad habits..

compare and contrast to the ski school app carving ski lesson video with orange top guy

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I like those. Very clearly expressed and demonstrated. But the likelihood of my skiing just like he does, just by watching the videos, is small.

skimottaret, yeah my point is that there is a lot of information floating around that is either misleading, open to misinterpretation or just plain bad. A video with that many views is going to have an influence on people. Not every viewer will have the experience to make a judgement as to what is useful and what is poo-poo.

I know that in the past I have learnt lots of bad habits from watching people, on video and in person, who inspired me at the time. Thats not to say that some were excellent skiers that I watched but I got the wrong ideas from what I saw.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Elston, agreed and hence why i am arguing that instruction and coaching has its place in the process...

A snowHead

Elston, that's exactly right, there's a lot of stuff on the net is, at best, misleading and sometimes worse. You're also right to say that even if the source material is good it can easily be misinterpreted. Picking up tips from YouTube and elsewhere can be helpful, but it's by no means guaranteed to improve your skiing even with good source material.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Pedantica, I'm sure Rob and Scott can "reconstruct" your sking for you. wink

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skimottaret, we are on the same page. Regular coaching with the use of a video camera is invaluable. Actually, one of the best lessons I have had was with rob@rar a few years ago. It was a great lesson because it directly addressed some of my misconceptions about skiing.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

andy,

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Pedantica, Damn........... never thought Ski Instructors (of their calibre) would pull a builder's trick...... "Sorry Madam, your short swings need some scaffolding and underpinning, we'll have to book you in for anothr 6 months lessons." Shocked

EDITED....... to clarify that this is a "tongue-in-cheek comment" not meant to be offensive, nor any form of value judgement, on any of the parties implied or directly/indirectly mentioned. This post is also sub judice and will self destruct in 30 years.

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Mike Pow,

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Being less rubbish at skiing. A masterplan. Anyone got any ideas?

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Being less rubbish at skiing. A masterplan. Anyone got any ideas?