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Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

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Interesting News regarding the Eurotest

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
does that work?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
jjc, Why not try what GrahamN suggested ?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yay, it's fixed! Thanksjjc
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 You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
jjc, So no mention of a specific radius at all then ?
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Latest BASI on ski length requirement ET

"I have spoken to Dave Renouf regarding your email, as far as we are aware the requirements are remaining the same for this season however we have emailed the French for further clarification on this and if there is a change in requirements this will appear on our website".
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
BASI has backed out of some of the changes to Eurotest fees made earlier in the year. More info here.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Is this common test going to have to be something agreed by all 27 member states of the EU?

If I see it correctly as it stands the all EU member states must by law recognise professional qualifications from all other member states, and if differences exist between a candidates training, then said candidate MUST be given the CHOICE of an adaptation period or an aptitude test. This must be the candidates choice except in one single case: ski instructor (and outdoor instructor). FR/DE/ITA/AT successfully argued to the EU commission that these jobs are too dangerous for an adaptation period to be sufficient to allow for required safety knowledge/behaviour and hence can freely impose an aptitude test, the eurotest. This is their fabled "derogation". Only those 4 countries have that right.

If the EU are trying to find a common ground, wont any new aptitude test have to be agreed by all 27 member states? I really cant see that happening, and we will just continue with the same chaotic system of recognition we have now.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
speaking with a few lads last week who had done ET's last season nobody had their skis checked for radius/ length. Seems to me the 21M rule has disappeared.. with no equipment rule and the openers times being averaged the ET looks a lot like the ISIA test.. Only difference is the calibration procedure and the pass time is harder.

Eight months after sending a group letter signed by 25 members to our Legal Director we have not had a formal reply regarding Age Discrimination.
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Had lunch with a mate of mine yesterday in tignes. He is in his 60ís. He is training with an ex French champion (esf now) for his euro test. He was 0.02 out last time. I asked him about racing against people 40 years younger than him and wouldnít it be better to have some form of age differential setting. His answer was ďthe French donít do it so why should we be allowed toĒ

It seems to have become (recently) the British was of doing stuff. Lets have a look at the small print to see if there is some way round this that or the other and if there isnít, lets try and change the small print in our favour.

The whole French thing is really dead simple. If you want to work in France, the French simply ask that you do the same tests that they ask their own apparent instructors to do. I canít see what the problems are with that. Itís their country.

Eg. We all know of some unqualified (well not high enough qualified enough) BASIís who take people out to France and teach them under some weird way of looking at French law. This ďmayĒ stand up in a court (although I doubt it Ė but Iím not a lawyer), but what happens when someone at the ESF notices and gets p1$$ed off and the L2ís get arrested and their clients are left on the slopes.
The French wouldnít allow their own unqualified people to do this, so why do the British think itís OK.

The French ask thier own people to do the Euro test as part of the ski teacher badge, so, if you want to work in france (legally ??), it's simple, pass the Euro test or don't work in france.
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Wayne, if you look back into this thread, you'll see that there are points of European law at stake - which the French are supposed to observe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Pedantica, that has been mentioned and it was stated that they have a right to ask incoming professionals to be equal to french instructors.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Pedantica, France has a derogation from the law you refer to, see here:

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/directive_in_practice/general_system_en.htm
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
beanie1 wrote:
Pedantica, France has a derogation from the law you refer to, see here:

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/directive_in_practice/general_system_en.htm

As always, the actual legislation / decision makes very interesting reading - Clause 14.b in particular:

Clause 14.b wrote:
The French authorities are required to take account of the professional experience of the migrant and to examine whether it is such as to compensate for any substantial differences in training.


The French would have difficulty rejecting an ISIA (possibly a L2) who can demonstrate track record of teaching safely in a mountain environment in another member state.

In the context of the derogation then the application of a speed-based aptitude test that does not include any element of safety supervision would be almost certainly indefensible if challenged in court.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FlyingStantoni, The "Eurotest" includes the EMS, as well as the spped test.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Wayne, the point about discrimination is not whether an individual of a given age / sex / race can achieve something, it's whether the set level is fair across a population.

You could equally apply the "it's their country" / "do the same test as the locals" approach to any profession. That's not what the EU is supposed to be about.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
beanie1 wrote:
FlyingStantoni, The "Eurotest" includes the EMS, as well as the spped test.

Passing the EMS would probably be enough then!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FlyingStantoni wrote:
Wayne, the point about discrimination is not whether an individual of a given age / sex / race can achieve something, it's whether the set level is fair across a population.

You could equally apply the "it's their country" / "do the same test as the locals" approach to any profession. That's not what the EU is supposed to be about.

Pedantica wrote:
Wayne, if you look back into this thread, you'll see that there are points of European law at stake - which the French are supposed to observe.


Hmmmmm, you may both be right, or it may be just a few people who want to work in france and object to having to pass the same tests that french people do.

Who knows wink

...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
beanie1 wrote:
The "Eurotest" includes the EMS, as well as the speed test.


The 'Eurotest' does not include the EMS unless BASI have moved the 'goal posts' once again without informing the membership wink
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stewart woodward I "think" beanie1 may mean that that an applicant will not be considered to have completed the full modual unless they have done both.

PS. Was chatting to P & E (and kids) today in the top cafe. Are you out on sunday to play in the big dump? (send me a text if you are we'll meet up)
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

http://youtu.be/xcBzhwXibw4

Finally got around to making a comparison video so you can see the level, opener in Red.

Video was taken during the week in Saas Fee and the course was around 40 sec long. After the time was calibrated the candidate was inside by 0.50 sec.
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stewart woodward, that is how it was explained to me - there are two modules the "European Speed Test" and the "European Mountain Security" which are the requirements of the Euro group in the top level of each country's qualification. Although the shortening Eurotest is usually used to refer only to the speed test.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:

Eight months after sending a group letter signed by 25 members to our Legal Director we have not had a formal reply regarding Age Discrimination.


skimottaret,

Reply from the office:


Thanks for prompting us on the lack of a formal reply to the letter on age discrimination in the Euro Speed Test. Our Board Members have been in touch by Ďphone and email with the correspondent several times with updates since the letter was received but it is true that there has been no formal response and this oversight has been rectified and a letter sent this week. The Board did take this forward from the first meeting after the letter was received and sought legal advice and made reference to our own records and had further discussion with our European colleagues none of which happens without some delay.

It may be interesting for Members to note that the legal advice given to the Board is that there isnít a case for age discrimination and also that BASIís statistics show that 19% of the people passing are over 30.

Members of the Board are very approachable and will action matters for our Members and we hope that Members can see that the inference that nothing has been done in this case for eight months doesnít add up. Members of the Board are volunteers and work hard in the interests of the Membership and would be rightly disappointed if their efforts are not seen in a balanced light.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
beanie1, I had been in regular contact with our Legal Director and Chairman and had spoken with Gareth at length at the London Ski show and knew that they were working on the matter. I didn't mean to imply that nothing had happened over eight months. My apologies for that and I should add that everyone at BASI has been very helpful and given the matter a very considered and professional review.

The reason i was a touch negative with my previous post was that I had heard in October that a report would be forthcoming and I have had numerous requests from people who signed the group letter as to what the status was.

I have received a very detailed and well thought out reply from Gareth which I will be passing on to the members who signed the group letter.

A public thanks from me to all concerned at BASI for looking into the age discrimination aspect of the Eurotest and I hope that during the negotiations on the Euro Professional Card that the age aspect is taken into consideration should any changes be made to the current Eurotest format.

ps the snow in Meribel is very very good!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
skimottaret,

I suspected that this might happen when you sent your letter to BASI.

In any given legal case (argument) the two or more opposing opinions will asked their legal advisers to represent thier opinion. The current BASI board would not instruct thier legal adviser to promote an argument in favour of an easy of the test limit based on age. Instead they would have instructed their legal representative (sorry that should be the meberships' legal representative) to present an agrument in favour of NOT having a age allowance. What you really need is a sight of the legal reasoning, not a nice little letter from the Chairman.

Pedenatica is right, what matters here is the LAW and how it is applied. Everytime the French are challenged they lose. The law does not require that we measure ourselves against the Eurotest, BASI have made a gentlemans agreement to use the Eurotest (and apparently ignore the ISIA test).

Using the Eurotest as a measure only serves the best interests of those who have passed were exempted form sitting the Eurotest, of whom there are multipleon the BOARD.
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Bindingcheck, it is my understanding there are a number of current and former board members who have passed the Eurotest, so your inference is somewhat unfair.
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 snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Bindingcheck wrote:
What you really need is a sight of the legal reasoning


I requested a copy of the legal opinion on the 10th December. Still awaiting a reply Puzzled
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
stewart woodward,
Did P give you the 2 thingies I left ?
MrsStewart will sort em for ya wink
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
stewart woodward, I've reminded them of your request.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
posted on the BASI facebook page, great to hear that the minutes and docs will be made available...
------------------
EU Pro Card Update Ö..
There was an ad hoc meeting of the Government Co-ordinators and Professional Organisations representatives at the EU in Brussels on the 15th December to discuss the Memorandum of Understanding on the ski instructorsí qualifications. The minutes of the meeting have not yet been circulated yet by the EU Commission. Some nations were not represented at the meeting, Italy, Austria and Denmark amongst them, and, while there were discussions on the sharing of information through the centralised database and the standards for the mountain safety and Eurotest, no agreements were signed and so the pilot EU Pro Cards are still no closer. It is understood that further discussions between the Professional Organisations are to take place in January 2012 with the expectation that the National Co-ordinators will meet again in February. We will be posting up links to minutes and documents as they become available.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
stewart woodward,
Quote:

I requested a copy of the legal opinion on the 10th December. Still awaiting a reply



Fergus has replied:

"The Legal Director engaged with a number of employment lawyers who kindly offered their views, and experience on the subject and provided relevant case law. It is this view which is presented in the letter."
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Has anyone read the BASI international setion? I have read the the pdfs with interest. Seems like the eurotest is to stay and practically unchanged.

I noticed that spain have requested that their diploma holders be recognised without eurotest? And france has initimated agreeing to that....whats that all about? Why havent the UK done same or just said NO.

What about all the non-eurotest instructors that currently have equivalence ie those old grade 1s who were over 35 at the time? Will they get given another amnesty.

2 points:

when PK cut the deal with the french for equivalence 10 yrs ago, it was an admittance in effect the the eurotest is too hard for those older instructors. Also on safety, I cant believe this is still the basis for the argument for the eurotest. How about the million of hours taught every season by non-eurotested instructors? Is anyone genuinely saying that switzerland etc has a worse safety record in the last 10yrs than france for example?

The way this is handled is a bloody joke,and its illegal.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
freshie, The Spanish position is more surprising now that in some regions they are no longer recognising the ISIA or L2 as they have in the past.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
For further reference, the candidate in our comparison video made during Novembers training camp passed his eurotest today in Maria alm by 4 tenths of a second. Hopefully this will help you get a gage of the standard.
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jjc wrote:
For further reference, the candidate in our comparison video made during Novembers training camp passed his eurotest today in Maria alm by 4 tenths of a second. Hopefully this will help you get a gage of the standard.


Top news, well done to your 'candidate' wink He's amazing snowHead
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Turns out the Eurotest is spreading, 2 more countries are looking to join in and start running tests!
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jjc james, and rumblings of raising the FIS point exemption to 130 and 110 for women to satisfy the countries that wont run their own tests... wink

jjc, good result for your guy and really interesting to watch a candidate that mock tested within the mark go on to pass in the real deal. well done!!!!
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
not sure the exemption levels will change any time soon. no mention of it in meetings here and pretty sure the standard levels have be passed on to the newer rule set.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jjc james, it was on the meeting notes for the new Europe wide pro card. not a done deal by any stretch but sounded like a concession that the smaller EU nations were all going to require to reach agreement and vote it through....
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freshie, Word is that BASI is about to sign a Memorandum of Understanding for the Euro Card very shortly, Spain seems to have cut a deal to get their old boys exempt from the Eurotest.... I wonder if we negotiated anything for our support of the process or will this new card just be an extension of the current deal ISTD's have with the FEMP's countries...

Be interesting to to see what the implications of the new Eurocard will be on the working rights of L2 and L3 instructors within the EU..

I am looking forward to reading the minutes of the meeting, it will be good to know what our association is signing up to on behalf of the 6000 plus BASI members (95% or so who aren't L4's)
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skimottaret wrote:


I am looking forward to reading the minutes of the meeting, it will be good to know what our association is signing up to on behalf of the 6000 plus BASI members (95% or so who aren't L4's)


Don't hold your breath, all the interesting bits will be blanked out/omitted.
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