 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Control
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well even new skier me worked out I wasn't getting the most out of skis on the reds as my boots were a bit big and loose, nice new ones a size smaller feel much more precise!
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| Quote: |
i note numerous posts on here whereby we're told that boots need to be so closely and precisely fitted, that (as numerous posters post) the first year is agony, the second a bit better andby year 3 their boots are tight but comfortable, albeit they have to undo the buckles on up lifts.
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bit of an exageration.... unless you tell a boot fitter you are a racer wanting super tight boots. There's no way a "holiday skier" needs to be in agony ever, let alone for a year!
"slightly too big" boots are not necessarily comfortable - I have twice bought new boots precisely because the old ones had become uncomfortable, with my feet twisting a bit inside them, and ankles rubbing when I had to skate. And as Mosha Marc says, unless your boots fit well you don't have good control. I was having trouble doing exercises needing precise edge control. My foot was edging more than the boot - and apart from being inefficient, that was also quite painful after a while. My new boots, precisely fitted but for a "comfort fit" not a racing fit, were more comfortable right away, despite being a whole shell size smaller - and now, if I am struggling with the exercises, I know it's me, not my boots. I wore them for a few hours at home in the evening a few times, and after that they were great, straight away.
I have difficult feet, quite stiff and arthiticky. I wouldn't tolerate uncomfortable - let alone agonizing - boots even for a day. Mine are a good compromise between fit and comfort - exactly what I asked for, in fact.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mosha Marc,
OK - but that's the "standard" answer; it's hard to believe there is "no" control if your boots are a bit too big, and then all of a sudden you suddenly have "control".
I know my boots are too big by the rules purported on here, but i ski fastish, with lots of short turns, even carve most of them, and angulate a lot. I fall about once every 3 trips. I wouldn;t have thought i don't have "control"
So do you mean "more control" or are you saying that if you were in a a pair of boots that are 0.5 bigger than your current boots, that you would be unable to control your skis ? Honestly, i wouldnt believe that to be the case.
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Now after much fettling my boots are comfortable all day without the need to loosen them, I recon it's taken about 5 visits to sort them. 7mm shell check, compared to the old ones which were nearer 20mm. The improvement in the way they ski is dramatic, definitely worth the time spent to get them right.
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sev112, you're right. It was a one word flippant answer. But it was done to try to emphasize the difference between well fitted (not tight) boots and poorly fitted (not comfortable) boots.
Well fitted boots become comfortable very quickly. Poorly fitted boots hamper your performance always.
I'm sure it isn't so black and white, but if your buying new boots anyway then why not get them fitted properly?
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If you don't know your boots are too big, it doesn't matter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sev112, next time you're skiing unclip all your buckles and see how much feeling and control you lose. It's not a perfect facsimile of being in boots which are too big, but it's a similar feeling IMO.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The most uncomfortable boots I've had have all been on the larger side, the most comfortable boots I've ever had (my current ones) are around a size smaller than my shoe size, they have, however, been professionally fitted.
So in my experience there's no a simple equation between looser fitting and more comfortable, in fact my experience suggests the more comfortable boot is the closer fitting professionally fitted boot.
| sev112 wrote: |
Mosha Marc,
Why not get them fitted - because for many people that means paying something like £250 to £300 plust the "5 trips to sort them" . as opposed to the £80 to £140 that you can get from mid-season onwards when resort shops (and elsewhere) start offloading stock. |
I don't see how this is the case, fitting usually comes as part of the deal certainly in the 'big' 2 UK snowsports retailers. Admittedly quality of fitting can be hit or miss with these companies but it's no extra and they offer comfort guarantees as part of the bargain.
Even in the case of a professional dedicated bootfitter your quote of £300 is a bit steep, because I have awkward feet and use my boots so much (being an instructor) I was willing to pay extra for custom inners and bought reasonably expensive custom footbeds but I don't think even then the final bill (on top of the cost of the boots) came to £300.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My boots were £200 if I remember correctly and the fitting was included in the price (at Lockwoods). I've been very pleased with both the service and the fitting and haven't needed to go back to get them adjusted or anything once, so it isn't always expensive or extra money on top of the price of the boot with extra visits required, I guess it depends on the feet though. Although for me, I wouldn't have minded going back at all to get them right if need be, I think it's very sensible to get boots fitted by professionals and personally I have definitely seen the benefits of doing so. 
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sev112,
| Quote: |
Why not get them fitted - because for many people that means paying something like £250 to £300 plust the "5 trips to sort them" . as opposed to the £80 to £140 that you can get from mid-season onwards when resort shops (and elsewhere) start offloading stock
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No decent ski shop will let you buy boots that aren't properly fitted, an neither will they charge extra for fitting. Having them properly fitted is an integral and essential part of buying boots, not an optional extra. And yes, it makes a big difference - even if you haven't noticed performance 'problems' yet, you will definitely notice the improvement.
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You know it makes sense.
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sev112, I'm still in my first boots - what I notice on boot threads is that many peoples first boots can be on the large side for them as I think people tend to comfort first off so as to not put them off skiing straight away. Mine are no exception and I know they are around a half size too big. My skiing has been improving and a move to a higher grade of ski made me realise that perhaps my control could be improved with firmer fitting boots. My problem was that I couldn't afford to replace the ones I had. I know yours are 10 yrs old, but if you wanted to try a firmer boot I guess it is possible that a visit to a bootfitter could still tighten up yours in the same way that my shop tightened mine up in January. I had a red off the shelf footbed fitted and the shop slipped a neoprene sleeve (a shape like a sock with the heel and toe chopped off) over the boot liner - these neoprene whatsits were very good price wise being £20 a pair. The difference these made to the fit of the boot was amazing and I think well worth the total £50 cost. I still had the comfort of the slightly large old boot with plenty of wiggly toe space, but these gadgets in them made the fit suddenly seem firm, esp around the middle of my foot and around my heel - no heel lift now. It wasn't until the adjustment was made that I realised how loose they must have been before. I now don't need to ratchet the clips over as far as they will go to make the boot feel firm. I probably still need new boots at some point in the future, but I think I will get another couple of years out of these with these volume reducing inserts in them. Whether I skied any better due to the adjustments is debate-able (I was on new more difficult to ski skis), but the fit IS improved so from all I read my control should be better too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mine are a couple of sizes too big according to a well respected boot fitter. The flip side is that they are comfortable off the shelf with out any modification. The only time I've thought that I need more control was during GS race training. However, I suspect mine to too big in length rather than width as they feel bloody tight 1st thing in a morning.
However, my wife had a pair of oversized boots and suffered from ankle pain, and correctly fitting\fitted boots did the trick. Even with the correct fit she still finds the first couple of days of a trip uncomfortable.
Personally, I'm amazed that a consumer product sold "off the shelf" can such a massive pain(!) to get right.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The other option, of course, is to buy new boots that fit right out of the shop. If they pack out a bit too much, sell them on in a couple of season at minimal loss if you get some in the sales.
I managed to find some boots that were comfortable from day two, and which fit me fine right now after 2 weeks of skiing. I reckon I'll get another couple of weeks out of them and then they'll probably be a bit slack - maybe not though.
I bought them for £110 in a sale (normal price £200+, I've seen them up to £270 in "premium" shops and in resort) and I can easily see them selling for £50-70 in a season or two's time. For that money really as long as they fit better than rental boots (which they do, by a mile) then it's been worth it. I'll get 6 weeks skiing roughly for £60 at worst.
Other people seem to want to buy one pair of boots every 10 years, in which case spending months going backwards and forwards to fitters makes sense. Of course if you have weird feet that need a lot of work, or if you are spending months in your boots I can understand it, but you don't have to spend £500 to get a good fitting pair of boots.
I have no doubt that a proper boot fitter could get a size smaller to work for me and the fit would be incredibly good, but I just don't need that level of performance - the major problem with technique in many cases is the person above the footbed  Personally, it will be a long time before I am going to find my boots to be the limiting factor in my skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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All - very useful range of resopnses - thanks
Megamum, very interested in your "tightening" - i've never heard of this before and i'd be interested if anyone else has had a similarly successful experience /
I'm just suffering from the thouhgt of spending £250 on a pair that i'm going to only get a few more days use this year. I spose i ought to go to more Hemel events then
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sev112, I'm sure the guy said that they were Salomon something or others. I daresay the bootfitter pros will recognise the description. I don't suppose they are any substitute for a new boot that fits, but IMV they made one hell of a difference to my existing ones - in fact what what I described of the difference the guy in the shop doubted that I would notice much difference in a new tighter set of boots from what I could now feel - apart from new ones do doubt being stiffer in flex. The only thing is I guess in time even the new neoprene sleeve will probably pack down. It was exactly as I describe made of what seemed to be thin neoprene and shaped like an ankle sock with the toe and heel sliced off. It appeared to lead to extra snuggness all around the foot - above and below - whereas the new footbeds only worked under the foot, though they helped with the heel fit. and it made the boots feel much better. Its funny as soon as he produced them I knew they were going to do the trick within my budget. The bootfitter pro's might not agree that they were the correct things to fit, but they worked for me and I guess that is what counted for me whether it was the right or wrong solution.
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rob@rar,
Interesting point; i've read in various locations (Ron LeMaster's books for example) that one could/should loosen off their buckles when in moguls, off piste. This would imply that in certain conditions competent skiers would want less "control" (because that is what is being sugegsted above is what you get in looser boots). If that logic is correct, then some skiers may have "less" but "sufficient" control in boots that are always looser .
Where is the most important part of the boot to be best fitted - if it the footbed, the top of the boot, or the lower shin ?
Ta all
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sev112 wrote: |
rob@rar,
This would imply that in certain conditions competent skiers would want less "control" (because that is what is being sugegsted above is what you get in looser boots). |
Only if you assume that they're actually losing control by unbuckling the boots instead of having -an almost unchanged level of control- in a different forward pressure and range of motion regime.
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comprex,
Sounds logical; so why does Rob and others suggest unbuckling to demonstrate that i would have much less control in such a case (in either unbuckled or looser boots)
(i'm not getting stroppy here - just trying to understand the apparently differing views )
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sev112, as I said, it's not a perfect facsimile of a boot which is to big. But try it to see how much feel for your skis you lose when you are in a boot which offers a less precise fit.
I think skiing with boots undone is a good drill to get skiers to focus on ankle movement as loosening the clips allows the boot to flex with significantly less forward pressure from the lower leg. I think some skiers have their boots done up too tight, especially clips 3 and 4 because they are trying to increase control (maybe in an effort to compensate for boots which are too big), but with the consequence of locking out flex.
Like others have said, my current boots are the most comfortable I've ever had. They are also the smallest by at least half a mondopoint.
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| sev112 wrote: |
comprex,
Sounds logical; so why does Rob and others suggest unbuckling to demonstrate that i would have much less control in such a case (in either unbuckled or looser boots) |
Because it demonstrates that, even with the limited range of flexion and within the limited range of forward-biased pressure of a fully buckled boot,
you do not have the fine-steering control or the lateral balance control of someone who isn't limited by buckles, and that you are probably using more energy to achieve balance than that other person.
The second factor becomes more and more obvious the wider the ski you use.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, comprex,
thanks guys - interesting points.
Don't think i'll try it out at Hemel next week though - not with only half a slope open
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I've never yet had to suggest to a client they do their boots up tighter....
(edit - snowboarders excepted)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 7-03-10 22:28; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
I think skiing with boots undone is a good drill to get skiers to focus on ankle movement as loosening the clips allows the boot to flex with significantly less forward pressure from the lower leg. |
It is a good drill, but don't use it. You're opening yourself up to be sued. If a client falls and injures themselves whilst skiing with their boots undone, you've instructed them to use their equipment against manufacturers recommendations. It can alter the release values of the bindings, due to excessive movement inside the boot before release. It'd be your fault.
Times we live in I'm afraid. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spyderman, mmm, that's something I hadn't thought of! Thanks for the warning.
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rob@rar, Spyderman, I've often wondered about that one. Some Pole drills, more especially on plastic, worry me too.
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You know it makes sense.
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My new boots (4mm space) when open feel exactly like my old boots (20mm space). When shut the extra feel and control is noticable
The old boots were like slippers, the new boots took 3 days to break in and one visit back to CEM. The gain has been well worth the effort
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Some Pole drills, more especially on plastic, worry me too. |
Me too.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, the sock thing is (or used to be) Salomon Fit+. Used them with my old Rossi KXs that were a size too big. They helped a little but still packed down quite quickly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As already mentioned, there isn't a simple relationship between loose/tight fit and comfort level. I think the advantage of using a professional boot fitter is that you would hope to end up with a closer fitting boot that was also comfortable to wear all day. Only a racer would deliberately want a close enough fit to start seriously compromising their comfort level to achieve fine control for a few minutes thrashing down a race course.
No doubt your 10 year old soft boots are comfortable, but probably no more comfortable than a professionally fitted new boot (allowing for a couple of days break-in period), which will be a much closer fit. If your skiing doesn't instantly improve with a much better fitting boot then ski lessons are the real answer.
Going back to your first post, I would say if people are having to unbuckle their boots on lifts after 3 years, they are either badly fitted or of an unsuitable type for their needs. Plus I agree that if you're in agony when wearing your boots, you're not going to ski very well regardless of control.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My ski boots are a full size too big for me (UK11, c.f. my boarding boots which are a UK10 and are perfect).
My foot waggles about inside them like I may as well be wearing wellies, and I don't even bother doing them up very tight to compensate.
That said, I ski quite fast, quite steep, and nowadays I actively seek out the bumpy stuff. I get on OK.
I do find myself doing that toe-curling thing though where I'm trying to hang onto the footbed like a monkey, to stop them moving about. I think I've decided that they should be retired, and I'll be going for some size 10s this time around...
I was especially good at Rob's undone boots drill at Hemel recently, for the very reason that I effectively ski like that all the time. I hadn't thought of suing him though, even though I had quite a sore ankle afterwards. Thanks for the suggestion Spydey. Cher-ching!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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paulio, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll have to smile at me through my solicitor from now on I'm afraid, Robert.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ok ok - you all win
where's CEM's web address ?
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| Monium wrote: |
The other option, of course, is to buy new boots that fit right out of the shop. If they pack out a bit too much, sell them on in a couple of season at minimal loss if you get some in the sales.
I managed to find some boots that were comfortable from day two, and which fit me fine right now after 2 weeks of skiing. I reckon I'll get another couple of weeks out of them and then they'll probably be a bit slack - maybe not though.
I bought them for £110 in a sale (normal price £200+, I've seen them up to £270 in "premium" shops and in resort) and I can easily see them selling for £50-70 in a season or two's time. For that money really as long as they fit better than rental boots (which they do, by a mile) then it's been worth it. I'll get 6 weeks skiing roughly for £60 at worst.
Other people seem to want to buy one pair of boots every 10 years, in which case spending months going backwards and forwards to fitters makes sense. Of course if you have weird feet that need a lot of work, or if you are spending months in your boots I can understand it, but you don't have to spend £500 to get a good fitting pair of boots.
I have no doubt that a proper boot fitter could get a size smaller to work for me and the fit would be incredibly good, but I just don't need that level of performance - the major problem with technique in many cases is the person above the footbed Personally, it will be a long time before I am going to find my boots to be the limiting factor in my skiing. |
you're assuming someone is only skiing a week a year, I got new boots last year, did 30 days, 38 so far this year and probably 2 months worth of skiing left in Scotland. By your reckoning I would need to buy new boots at least once a year and I don't even live in a ski resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| lynseyf wrote: |
you're assuming someone is only skiing a week a year, I got new boots last year, did 30 days, 38 so far this year and probably 2 months worth of skiing left in Scotland. By your reckoning I would need to buy new boots at least once a year and I don't even live in a ski resort. |
Yep, if you ski loads, I'd expect you to either spend more to get boots properly fitted for once they're packed out, or a new pair of boots each season.
38 days a year on snow is a lot. In which case, I think you're starting to hit the point where paying more for fitted boots makes a lot of sense.
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FAQ
