Run grading - Europe vs. North America

A snowHead

I know that in Europe runs are graded green/blue/blue/red/black, and in North America it's green/blue/black/double black, but what I'm asking is this:
By the way I hear people talking about reds on these boards ("a well groomed red" "I was getting down reds by day 5" etc.), they sound alot more like a tougher blue in, say Whistler (I use Whistler because it's where I do most of my skiing/boarding now), than a Whistler black run (which are generally never groomed, fairly steep, and either moguled or gladed). Furthermore, a double black at Whistler automatically means it's going to be quite tough - i.e. generally a chute, or fairly heavily treed, or many cliffs nearby, etc., and also quite steep and never groomed. I'm sure there are massive numbers of European runs that are easily this tough, but is a black at a respectable european resort automatically going to bear the same level of difficulty as a Whistler double black?
Obviously how every European resort grades their runs is going to be different, but I'm just looking for a general idea here, and also I'm talking about large european resorts that have good terrain for advanced skiers.

A snowHead

ponder, you're right. A North American double black would often be just a steep, ungroomed area in Europe, or at least an "itinerary". Generally, a North American single black diamond would correspond with a European black, and a tough-ish North American blue might compare with a European red. This would certainly apply at one of the more challenging North American resorts.

The main difference is that in Europe, once the resort names and classifies a run, then it becomes officially part of the ski area. Then they are duty-bound to secure and patrol it. Any areas that remain "un-named" are not the resort's responsibility. European chutes or couloirs often have names (known to the locals), but are rarely marked on the trail map, presumably for that reason. (The "itinerary" is a good compromise solution: named on the trail map, and signposted, but neither secured nor patrolled.)

One problem in North America (also in Europe, but less so, I think) is that there is often pressure from the marketing department for a resort to have certain percentages of the various runs. So a resort with easy terrain tends to over-grade its runs, and resorts with tougher terrain sometimes do the opposite.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

For comparison, On Blackcomb, Springboard (under Solar Coaster Chair), Gandy Dancer (Ross' Gold) - which is graded a blue in North American terms - would roughly equate to a European Red. As would The Saddle on Whislter.

The bottom section of "GS" (approaching Harmony Chair in Whistler) (a blue square) would roughly equate to a european black run in terms of pitch (and bumps/lumps after it's been chopped up!)

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Indeed, when I used to ski in Ontario (eastern Canada, and nothing close to a mountain in the province) there were double blacks at some resorts that would be a blue at Whistler, and not even a tough one! Likewise, most of Whistler's green runs in the upper mountain aren't really runs at all, but cat tracks! (once again, I'm only talking so much about Whistler because it's the only large, good North American resort I've been to)
Makes sense about the official part of the ski area thing in Europe, but I do have a question about that. Wouldn't runs like "the Couloir," "Pakalolo Chute," "Couloir Extreme," etc. on Whistler/Blackcomb also be official parts of the ski resort, that are patrolled, despite being steep chutes? Why is this a problem in Europe and not in North America?

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Oops veeeight, didn't see your response before posting (posted on the same minute!). Thanks for the clarification though from both of you - I sometimes hear people talking about skiing European blacks after 2 weeks or so, and thinking that a european black = NA double black, I was trying to envision a 2 week skier going for something like Couloir Extreme, which obviously didn't add up!

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ponder, while a 2 week skier would probably be able to get down an European black slope, I would doubt that they would do so in a controlled manner and it certainly wouldn't look nice. It would take a lot more experience to be able to actually "ski" down an European black. Posibly more like 6-8 weeks to be able to do it with any degree of style (depending on actual slope in question and learning curve of skier).

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Indeed, many people consider "surviving with few falls" to be skiing a slope, which is obviously a questionable definition snowHead

But I doubt even a 4 week skier could "survive with few falls" some of the double-black couloirs at Whistler - they'd probably fall during the drop-off-a-cronice entrance and then slide all the way to the bottom, as I've been known to do Evil or Very Mad

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ponder, I reckon a 2 week beginer could probably get down (in some shape or form!) most of the black runs in Whistler/Blackcomb if they were in good condition and the entrances were in reasonable state (which they often are not - I think of Whistler bowl!). Though as with most resorts the toughness varies a lot even within the resort, from the Dave Murray Downhill which is generally easy (as long as you are not actually trying to do a downhill at 80+mph!) to the gladed runs and Gunbarrels which are almost all marked as single blacks as well.
I agree with the double blacks though - I don't think an average 4 week skier would stand much chance. I'm just getting visions of the Glacier Cirque or Glacier Couloir (and they are marked runs!) - no way any amount of 'survival' skiing's going to get you down them intact!! snowHead

One other thing to consider - here in Europe, with our very wet climate, there is considerable variation in snow conditions, even on pisted runs.

So, for example, a run graded 'red' may be within the scope of a 1 week skier - if they catch it with soft snow. On the other hand, a few sunny days later, bit of wind - and the same run will have a surface resembling Formica (kitchen work top), which nearly everyone will have problems with.

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stuarth, I think you misread my post - I stated that I didn't think survival skiing would do a 4 week skier any good on a Whistler double black Confused

I was implying that a 4 week skier using survival skiing could probably get down a European black though, hence showing that a European black is easier than a NA double black.
And ski, Whistler is a much lower resort than many other NA resorts (Colorado and Utah spring to mind), so we get variable conditions as well. Slush and ice are certainly not unheard of on Whistler pistes, unfortunately Twisted Evil

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that explains a few things. snowHead

we've been looking at US and canada sites and reading various reviews and getting very confused
does make us wonder whether Whistler is the place for (3 week skiers by then) in March or whether it will be beyond us. Puzzled

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Should be fine for 3 week skiers in my opinion. Here's a trailmap for Whistler:
http://media.intrawest.com/whistler/maps/trailmap0506.jpg
While I can't predict the future, chances are that by March there should still be good skiing conditions (possibly spring, slushy conditions, but possibly beautiful powder conditions, as was the case from mid-march to mid-april in whistler last year) at 1300+ m or so, which as you can see encompases a massive number of blue runs on both mountains. Even in worse than normal conditions, laps of the Jersey Cream, Glacier Express, and 7th Heaven chairs on Blackcomb provide a wide variety of great intermediate skiing, all at 1500+ meters.

Take a look at the weather stats page:
http://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/weather/stats/index.htm
March generally brings in about 2 to 3 times as much snow as February, and the average valley temperatures range from lows of -3 celcius to highs of 8 celcius (it's generally around 8 degrees colder mid-mountain, which leaves you with an average temperature range of -11 to 0 in March, which is pretty nice!).

ponder, I see (I think!). Were you thinking that a European Black was being compared to a US/Canadian double black? Generally I'd say that a European black (I'm comparing 3 Vallees and Espace Killy as they are the only European resorts I've been to) was similar or maybe slightly easier than a Whistler or Squaw black (depending on the run), but harder than a Northstar Black (which I felt weren't really black runs at all).

rob and sharon, You should be fine, I'd done 10 days skiing the first time we went to Whistler and had a great time (been back for about 20 more weeks there since! snowHead

)

You know it makes sense.

Indeed I was originally thinking for Europe/NA respectively: green=green, blue=blue, red=black, black=double black, but I now see that it's more like:
Average Euro green/easy blue = Whistler green
Average Euro harder blue/easy red = Whistler blue
Average Euro hard red/black = Whistler black
Euro off-piste steep chutes, glades, etc. = Whistler double black

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I would say that the range of variation in European "black" runs is enormous. It has been stated that what is a green run in Val d'Isere could possibly be a black run in Italy (verte), similarly within resorts black runs vary enormously from being relatively wide and well groomed, but steep, to being narrow, almost single track, and covered in enormous bumps.

Often if I'm skiing in a resort that I know, with someone less experienced, I'll take them down one of the easier black runs, it's exciting for them, and also a bit of a confidence booster, and at the end of the day it's quite amusing to hear them confidently say that they can ski black runs.

I guess that what I'm saying is that there is a huge difference between people saying that they can ski a black run, and someone who can ski all black runs in all conditions, safely, as it's a totally different ball game. Very Happy

A snowHead

Kramer, and it can also be highly variable on some of the other colours too. Many resorts like to have a 'green' back to the village on the piste map - even if it is in reality a narrow, normally icy, seriously busy, steepish path - - - which would normally be graded at least a blue if it didn't provide the sole return route.

Am I right in thinking it is generally the steepest part of a run which determines the grading ? So for example a red can very easily be 'blue' standard throughout most of it's length but with one short trickier area.

brian

kuwait_ian, I don't think there's any rules to run grading. Just make it up for a nice colour balance rolling eyes

btw, ponder,what's a "glade" ? (never skied in N America).

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Quite interesting to compare Courchevel with Whistler.

There are a bunch of couloirs from the Saulire in Courchevel. I think I'm right in saying that, these days, only one is marked on the piste map (Le Grand Couloir). I'd say it was at the easy end of Whistler double-blacks (although the narrow ridge-line cat-track to get in is quite sporting when it gets bumpy!). When I worked a season there (10 years ago) they also used to mark two other couloirs. The toughest was called Sous La Telecabine IIRC and was pretty steep, towards the upper end of Whistler double-blacks. Elsewhere in the 3V and Courchevel the blacks are generally very much easier.

Those runs are unusual for the Alps - generally they'd be unmarked for the reasons that Martin gives. I THINK there are two reasons why patrolling is less of a constraint in NA - the terrain is usually less complex (think Whistler and Blackcomb where all the runs end up in the same two places) and legal issues mean that they just have to patrol everywhere in the ski-area boundary.

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jedster, spot on. I've done the 3 Courchevel couloirs Grand, Emile Allais and Sous le Tele, which are exceptionally difficult for European blacks, and they are pretty similar to average Utah double blacks!

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jedster, yep. Rampantly cultural litigousness that exists in NA (by which I mean the USA), means resorts resort to patrolling everywhere within the resort boundaries. In less litigously fervent cultures the resort isn't considered responsible if you decide to go off their beaten track, and so patrolling is restricted to marked pistes.

ponder comparing piste gradings is notoriously nefarious, at both intra- and inter-national level. Clearly there's as much grading variation amongst NA resorts as there is in Europe!!! Cool

It's just that most of the posters here ski Europe and are better versed in the local oddities.

I started skiing in NZ - which follows (vaguely kinda sorta maybe) the NA grading system. Which is made even further meaningless by the fact that the North Island the slopes are on a volcano, which create massive bowls at altutide, infinate couloirs over which the so-called easy trails cross, and require considerable snow coverage in order to avoid the shale from grinding your skis into shreds. In the South Island the slopes are variously on nice gently sloping tussock, or alpine steepness that rivals the European Alps. A "blue" at one end of the country is not representative of a blue at the other end! Nor is there consistency between NZ c.f NA or Euro gradings.

Which means I had NO sensible point of reference for evaluating piste gradings when I started skiing in Europe a few seasons back - in the end it was just a matter of suck it and see.

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brian, a glade is a run where you're skiing in the trees.
Manda, indee, piste gradings are questionable everywhere. On Whistler I can't see too much of a difference between the Dave Murray Downhill (a black) and Ego Bowl (a green)! But I could still tell you what your average Whistler black would be like (or your average green, blue, or double black, for that matter), so I don't think the comparison is entirely useless. That NZ skiing sounds pretty interesting though - on a year with good snow I wouldn't mind having a go at volcano created bowl and couloirs Toofy Grin

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Plake,

When you go back you can do another three which have never been marked on the Piste map -

1. Meribel Couloir - turn left (towards Meribel!) at the start of the cat track - can be a bit rocky at the top but lovely lower down. Classy way to end an afternoon's skiing in Courchevel if you'r staying in Meribel and
2. (name I've forgotten) couloir - ski into the top of the Grand Couloir, ski across it, take your skis off, climb up a short, steepish snow slope and down into the next couloir. Very nice - similar angle to GC but narrower, tends to be less bumpy as few can be bothered to do the walk (all 2 mins of it!)
3. Verdons couloir - climb out of the previous one and onto the ridge. Generally you'll find some foot prints to walk in unless you are up pretty early after a dump. It's probably 10-15 minute walk but it takes you higher up to the top of a big, broad gully which is very noticeable from the midstation. The first 20 turns are in a fairly moderately angled couloir which gets practically no sun, is very sheltered and gets few skiers - can be fabulous. After that it opens up onto a steeper slope which drops you in to the big bowl skiers left of the Combe de Saulire piste. Well worth the walk.

2 and 3 feel a little intrepid (but aren't difficult skis). I guess you should have transceiver/shovel/etc for 3. Meribel Couloir is easier to get to than the GC. I guess it's only the commonly thin snow conditions at the top that have stopped them from marking it.

J

After all it is free

ponder, broadly speaking I'd say a N.American double black was harder than a European black and that a European black was harder than a N.American black.

There is the joker factor of individual resort gradings and the conditions, plus a lot of N.American runs are very short compared to European ones, in fact they've got a cheek counting some of them but in general, I'd say the above was true.

Found some good descriptions and photos of those Courchevel couloirs here:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dennis.summerbell/skiing/courchevelall.html

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Jedster - thanks for that, I've got the Vamos guidebook but it's always nice to hear about a route first-hand from an english speaking skier! I've always fancied the Croix de Verdons, and will be in Courchevel in March with my bro who is a mountainer and a good natural skier, so if conditions look nice....!

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Does anyone know if Dennis Summerbell still posts anywhere? He was always a most informative poster on rsre untill he stopped.

veeeight - that takes all the fun out of chairlift roulette Evil or Very Mad

You know it makes sense.

I met Dennis Summerbell and Amata some years ago in Val d'Isere. We stayed in the same chalet and skiied together a little. They were very nice people. I have not met them since that holiday.

Dennis suffered from cancer. The "British Society for Cell Biology" has an obituary
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/kis/schools/life_sciences/biomed/bscb/newsletter/summer2005/summer.html

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Great link by Martin.

Just to clarify a couple of points in my post now that I've seen the photos and text.

My Couloir 2 is Croix de Verdons (narrower but similar length to GC). My Couloir 3 is the one the article points out with a red arrow in the final photo but does not describe.

J

A snowHead

sorry I've taken this thread a long way of topic but just to finish on Courchevel.

Having read the rest of Dennis Summerbell's article - I agree with nearly all his comments, particularly about the Creux bowl and Vizelle (BTW the Epaule de Vizelle seems to have fallen off the piste maps but used to be marked as a black that headed straight down the shoulder (epaule!) between M and the Combe de Saulire - fantastic ski, never bashed, great steepish convex roll that pours you down above the mid-station.

He does miss a few things though

Creux - if you traverse past the big bump field he describes there is big, nicely angled snowfield with lots of space on a powder day. I've seen big slides on it though (it's sunny) so I am always suspicious of it. Equally, I have never done the run he describes to Meribel. It looks BEAUTIFUL but is very avalanche prone.

He's wrong about 1650 though. If you keep ski from Chanrossa towards 1650 and head right at every opportunity you drop into a gorgeous valley. The ski in is lovely - a mixture of nice angled bowls and some steep (40 degree) sections. There is a long pole/skate/walk out (to 1650 village) which would be better with AT bindings although I've done it without. This is very much off-piste and you need to be self-sufficient. I did it once without transceiver etc. Halfway I felt very stupid and would not do that again.

Also, you can climb the peak above Chanrossa(on your left as you look towards 1650) it takes 10 mnutes and gives a choice of steepish lines down to the 1650 area. Need a little care as snow can be thin in places.

Hmm. Is it still October?

A snowHead

Martin Bell, thanks, those look rather entertaining.

Dennis Summerbell seems to have been a very fine person and a tremendous writer amongst many other talents. Very sad to read his obituary.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Adrian,
Thank you very much for that rather sad piece of information. The link posted by Martin Bell gives an idea of the stuff he used to post on RSRE always helpful and informative, there is more information on the same site. I was very sorry to read his obituary.

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jedster, off-topic but what the hell! The gentle deserted valley going right from Chanrossa is Les Avals, and is a gorgeous place like you say. I took my cousin Heather down there on her 7th day ever skiing, in perfect 3cm of corn over a hard base, and I was also there last March when my mate was staying in the refuge and doing some touring & ski-mountaineering. The 40 degree section might be the Canyon, which is a bit trickier but still great fun and fairly safe. And the peak that you climb to the left from Chanrossa is Roc Mugnier, the run down in north facing and virtually always nice. The first time I did it was about 8 yrs ago and we were cautiously making our best attempts at controlled slow tight turns with skinny skis when a few local hotshots on snowboards COMPLETELY blew us away, doing about 60mph, flying off little cliffs, you name it! Still the most amazing skiing or snowboarding I've ever seen, and that includes watching a world cup downhill...

Hmm. It's still October I'm afraid but a little daydreaming on a Friday afternoon at work never hurt anyone!

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Les Avals is a nice valley. Did it with an ESF guide in their "Ski Decouverte" (Ski Discovery) programme. From the top of Chanrossa chair we traversed, with left-arm downhill, not losing much height until we entered the valley. It seem a nice long downhill off piste ski until we joined the long easy path. Long and easy on skis that is. We were higly amused by the snowboarders we overtook and who were trudging along the path - they even asked how much further the path went.

I have had some good days with the ESF Ski Decouverte both from Courcheval and from Meribel. One problem is that it is (was?) unpredictable about the other people in the group. Some days all were much better than me and so I struggled to keep up. Other days I was amoung the best and the others were more keen on picnics than on skiing.

Help!!

Run grading - Europe vs. North America

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